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Silat thought started by ov1

Subject: Silat thought
From: ov1

Date: 17-Aug-99 | 06:44 PM

Any of you guys know of anyone that has incorporated any Silat into their inventory? It would surpise me if no one did considering the footwork that can be learned. There is some good grappling in there too. Learning to play the angles is a great thing to learn when trying to zone in on an opponent, and Silat does this well.

I bring this up because I have just began to participate in the Kali class at Obake, in an effort to supplement my submissions training. And I have to say that I T-totally enjoy the hell out of it! And I have noticed that the foot work and the playing of the angles has helped me quite a bit. Anyone with similar experiences.

Playing with Escrima sticks is cool too!

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From: spike
Date: 17-Aug-99 | 07:39 PM

Silat has become my core art. You are right on the money about the footwork. All of the arts from that region are effective in that regard. The grappling is in many styles of Silat. My favorite is Harimau. The stuff just boggled my mind when I first saw it.

Spike

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From: Ozone
Date: 17-Aug-99 | 09:11 PM

Describe more about Harimau. I find it interesting.

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From: spike
Date: 17-Aug-99 | 10:06 PM

It is based on the movements of tigers. I affectionately refer to it as creating human pretzels.

Often times you will lock your opponent up in such a way that your hands are free to defend against another attack. Sometimes this is done by using your feet as if they were hands. While stepping free from your original attacker you would destroy the limbs that you have tied up.

Check out The West Coast Academy for some pictures of Pendekar Suwanda performing some Harimau techniques.

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From: Xface
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 02:11 AM
~Silat is Filipino in origin, correct? Is it more stand up or are there techniques on the ground..?Xface.

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From: spike
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 08:50 AM
Silat is from Indonesia/Malasia. The Dutch also have many different versions of Silat that they picked up while occupying Indonesia. You can find everything you see in the Martial Arts within some form. There are hundreds of different styles covering every possible range of combat. Weapons also play an integral part of many styles. Pendekar Suwanda teaches a very good blend of different styles within the US.

Spike

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From: rpl96
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 12:14 PM

Hey guys, I just looked up that Harimau picture, and it is cool !!! It IS making human pretzels!

What are some other good websites?

- Ron

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From: Stovall

Date: 18-Aug-99 | 12:18 PM

spike,

Have you seen any of Pendekar Paul's Bukti Negara?

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From: spike
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 12:26 PM

No I have not had the opportunity to see any Bukti Negara. I would welcome the opportunity.

Check this out for more information about Pendekar Suwanda and Pencak Silat Mande Muda.

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From: Stickgrappler
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 01:41 PM

Hello,

Harimau means tiger and it is their groundfighting. They have some vicious takedowns that end up in leglocks. Check out Guy Chase's 2 vids from ESPY-TV.

Needless to say, Pendekar Paul DeT's Bukti Negara is deadly too. Generally trapping range is preferred.

Pendekar Suwanda's Mande Muda can be thought of as the JKD of Silat, as at one point, it had 18 subsystems that he learned from his dad and now I believe it's up to 25. Each of the subsystems is a style in its own right and generally concentrates on one aspect of fighting, e.g. there's one style dealing with the use of the sarung, another is Harimau and is groundfighting, another is Cimande (Tjimande) and is hitting, forgot the name, but there's one for meditation.

IIRC, Central Philippines has Silat too, generally known as Kuntao Silat. Dan I. has formulated his synthesis of the various silat he has learned and called it Maphilindo silat from the various sources. FYI, MA = malaysia, PHIL = philippines, INDO = indonesia; put it all together to get Maphilindo.

HTH.

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From: AD
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 02:28 PM

I have trained in silat over in Malaysia. Please note the term silat refers to the the self defence applications but it does not mean that the forms are taught. I have not studied the forms too much. The style of silat that i trained in really supplements my Ju Jitsu. The style that i teach is nicknamed malayan jungle fighting and incorporates alot of takedowns from the clinch that rely more on leverage that muscle power. Also we use alot of techniques to bridge the gap to the clinch such as fast hand strikes combined with gouges.

The harimau would be good to flow into from BJJ's beach position (butt scoot)

Silat has alot of emphasis on mental training and esoteric practices. Be careful becuse some of the silat tapes available are very iffy!

A friend of mine LA who teaches Savate and Bag gua is a student of Willem De thours . willem is apparently one of the best silat teachers in the USA and i believe he is based in Denver.

Feel free if you want to ask me any questions on this post. Unfortunetly my posts never come up on the screen . I do not know what i am doing wrong cos i can add to other peoples posts.

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From: ov1

Date: 18-Aug-99 | 02:49 PM

The response here is greater than I expected. Spike, AD, thanks for the input! The grappling involved has really surprised me, it is very effective. Especially effective when used by a big guy. I love learning the take downs that are hands off, leaving me to pound away. I have surpised some of my submissions buddies with this stuff.

Can you recommend any other sites or videos that are good for background to study outside of class?

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From: charris
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 02:59 PM

Some of the names mentioned in this thread are living examples of how misinformed those who despise traditional martial arts really are.

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From: ov1

Date: 18-Aug-99 | 03:34 PM

what do you mean charris? I am curious, as I am supplementing my sub training with silat/Kali

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From: Stovall

Date: 18-Aug-99 | 03:40 PM

I think he meant some of the people here rag on martial artists like Suwanda because they may be percieved as being a traditionalist, but if you take time to look at their stuff it is as good as anything you see in the octagon.

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From: joseph labbate
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 03:49 PM

If silat is so effective why did a fighter of silat lose to a Judo/Ju-jitsu stylist named Remco pardeu in U.F.C II?

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From: ov1
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 03:49 PM

Yeah, that is what I figured. I am trying to get input other than what is on the websites that I have seen. I keep seeing the same thing! I enjoy hearing from others who have been doing it for a while, and maybe with some practical application.

Seems to me that this is effective! I have used in it sub class, and against some of our bjj guys. It works well, if you set up right, like anything else...

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From: Stovall
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 03:55 PM

Joseph,

There are literally hundreds of styles of silat. Some are deadly while others have evolved into martial sports that resemble karate point fighting. On top of this, there are many different people who study these arts. Alberto Cierra Leone was just one of them, and I'm not certain what particular style of silat he studied.

I would never judge a SYSTEM by one PERSON'S performance. I'd hate to judge BJJ by some of Aumary Bitette's performances (got tooled by Don Frye, and beat to death by Mestre Hulk).

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From: ov1
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 03:58 PM

Joeseph, I think that you are reading too much into this. You have to take the good with the bad. I personally am supplementing my submissions training with Silat, and finding certain things quite useful. And from what I have seen, most of the people I have trained with are more into the weapons aspect of the art. Which could probably explain why no Kali/Silat practicioner has succeeded in the UFC. It does have some great aspects. You should roll with someone that is good at Silat, I think that you will be surprised at how much it resembles Ju Juitsu.

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From: andre

Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:07 PM

Actually Stovall and joseph labbatte, I think you're both right.

Silat is VERY effective.

However, it was never intended, in any way, to be used for the sport of fighting. Silat's techniques and fighting strategy were based on the environment in which the arts (there are many systems of silat) was developed.

For example, Harimau (tiger) is known for its low stances and sweeping moves. Harimau was developed in an environment that was grassy and wet, which made fast and evasive footwork impossible on the slippery surface. Also, the art takes into consideration the possiblity of a weapon (usually a knife or screwdriver) being introduced into the fight at any point.

In the end, it can be summed up by one point: How you train is how you will fight.

The Gracie's and BJJ'ers have trained all of their life for the types of fights we saw in the early UFC's and the GIA's. Today's NHB'er trains for today's rules and time limits. Silat fighters have NEVER trained for either scenario.

There are alot of effective techniques in Silat, but as an art for NHB, it is almost useless.

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From: Stovall
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:25 PM

Andre,

I agree with your analysis of environmental factors in the synthesis of a fighting art (in this case Harimau). However, I do not believe that silat is useless in any fighting context, and that includes the MMA environment. A silat practicioner could be successful in this arena as long as they are aware of the environment in which they will compete, and put in the time to prepare themselves for the likely tactics and techniques that they would face.

In the end, it boils down to the person and not the art, and I'm sure you would agree on this point.

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From: ov1
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:28 PM

Good post andre! I have found many of the techniques very useful already. There are easy to apply when you have a knowledge of how grappling works, and you can move your feet. Which is something that not a lot of people do well. harimau is quite interesting, not to mention challenging. Quite possibly the most intriguing thing about this art is that you can make it personal. You can interpret how you want a technique to look and apply, and it will still be effective.

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From: andre
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:34 PM

Stovall,

I agree with you that it is the man, not so much the art. But, if a Silat practitioner were to alter his training and his art to reflect the nature of the octagon, it would force him to adopt the training methods and techniques of today's NHBer.

For example, Silat is known for its effective sweeps. Let's assume that a Silat fighter manages to pull off a sweep in NHB. Then what? The sweep wont have the same destructive capability it has on the street, and the grappling silat teaches is useful only against the untrained. Silat's grappling is primarily based on well-placed strikes that set up intricate joint locks. On the street, I believe these techniques work because the opponent is so completely unfamiliar with the ground. However, in NHB the silat fighter finds himself with a well conditioned opponent who will not commit to most of his strikes, will not be injured by a sweep, and will not be suceptible to sudden surprise attacks.

I believe that Silat is VERY effective against knives, sticks, and the average streetfighter. I don't believe it can be altered enough to compete today in NHB and still be called "silat".

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From: Stovall
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:40 PM

Andre,

Yes, you make some valid points, but I still think that many silat systems have enough in their arsenal to adapt properly to the octagon without, in essence, becoming something that it isn't (did that make sense?).

At any rate, it's cool for us to "agree to disagree". I agree with much of what you say, and I can tell that your's is an informed opinion (unlike others).

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From: andre
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:49 PM

I think it's great to disagree. It makes us think harder about our opinions.

Thanks for your feedback. I think I had a rude awakening to NHB when I thought I could hang with the Machados on the mat after 5 years of intensive silat/kali training. I got spanked really bad. I hate to use this excuse because I laugh at the karate guys when they say it, but, "the most destructive parts of silat are not allowed in NHB".

Silat is just mean. I love it, but it is a mean art. Silat masters in Indonesia grow their thumb nail long, and sharpen it so that they can draw it across their opponent's open eye when they clinch or go to the ground. The idea is to be so brutal that there is no way for the opponent to retaliate.

Great posts, Stoval and ov1. I am enjoying this conversation immensely!

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From: Stovall
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:51 PM

andre,

Have you had the chance to study or train with Pendekar Paul and his Bukti Negara system?

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From: andre
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:54 PM

Yes, Stovall. Many times. I trained primarily under Cass Magda, but had many opportunities to train with Suwanda, the DeThouars brothers, and Dan Inosanto.

Those were great times (1989-1994). I really miss the training.

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From: Stovall
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:56 PM

Wow! Cass Magda is the man. Haven't had the opportunity to meet him, but I would jump at the chance to train under him. I saw one of his European Tour tapes and was blown away by his knowledge, ability, and teaching style.

Great guy.

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From: andre
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 04:58 PM

I'm glad to hear you've heard of him. I spent about five years with Cass. He is largely unknown to the NHB community, but well respected in the Kali/JKD world.

Where do you train? If you're ever in L.A., I'll take you down to Cass' school for some classes.

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From: Stovall
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 05:03 PM

Thank you for the kind invite. I AM
in Marion, AR (just outside Memphis, TN), and Jim Smothers is my instructor in JKD/Kali (he is an associate instructor under Guru Dan). He knows Cass well, and has spoken of him with deep respect and admiration on numerous occassions. I am left with the impression that Cass is definitely old school when it comes to training. From what I've heard from close sources, and what little I've seen on tape...he doesn't play around.

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From: ov1
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 06:02 PM

Wow you guys! I hate feeling like a neophyte, but I am learning by what you say. I grow more excited at the prospect of delving deeper into Kali/Silat by the post. The guy that I am studying with is an ordained full instructor under Guru Dan as well, so I know that I am getting quality instruction. Well, that is all that we have at Obake... Anyways, keep the flow going guys! I am really enjoying the conversation. Stovall, it is too bad that you missed the fights that we had last weekend. It was the southeastern WEKAF finals. And we also had Guru Dan Sippen here for a seminar while we were at it.

We have another seminar by Steve Tarani coming up soon too. It is going to be awesome.

So, don't mind me, I am talking all of this in, talk AM
ongst yourselves (said in my best jewish new yorker accent...)

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From: andre
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 06:35 PM

Stovall,

Cass is definitely old school. I trained harder there than anywhere else.

There was alot of full contact, but with protective gear (usually a mouthpiece, shinguards, and boxing gloves). There was also plenty of stick sparring and hours upon hours upon hours of training on the thai pads.

It was a great time. I remember sitting on the cold cement floor of the school as Cass was explaining a technique, and thinking that there was no place in the world I'd rather be than right there training.

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From: Count Dante
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 06:46 PM

Don Frye studied Silat.

If you have even a passing interest in Silat, buy Rick Tucci's videos. They are out standing

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From: AD
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 08:02 PM

It is true that there are some styles of silat that are merely combinations of taekwon do and basic judo so you have to be careful.

In regards to the silat guy in UFC 2. I can make no excuses for him simply because he was up against a better ground fighter. Silat styles that i trained in did not have too much emphasis on groung grappling.

The silat man normally trys to takedown opponent while staying on feet to follow with strikes. The harimau groung system is not as tight as BJJ.

The silat man will normally bite if he is being smothered by a grappler. or try and gouge. Obviously silat be vulnerable to submission fighters however the silat instructors who keep there feet on the ground have enough diverse techniques and ingenuity to start adapting to deal with the grappler.

In regards to the ufc2 sialt guy we know litttle about him. we can only speculate why he lost. Maybe he was having a bad day or perhaps he simply was not of a high level. lets face it the ufc has hardly brought in the elite of traditional martial arts. The traditional fighter s ended up resorting to versions of grappling. I never saw Delucia use any five animals gung fu or Sutton use any mantis. The best traditional fighyters were hackney and ichihara.

There is a draw back in certain areas of silat from certain people. For example if you are quite heavy or carry alot of muscle or u are quite tall u may find some of the very low stances awkward and even damaging to the knees if you r not careful. Of course there is nothing to stop u adapting the stance to your build.

Anyone who does not feel confident relying on boxing because of lack of height should definetly check out silat becuase it has some good defences and flowing hand techniques.

Open hand techniques are effective as Hackney has shown!

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From: Ozone
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 08:27 PM

I heard the Harimau evolved on slippery mountainous regions and developed low stances and takedowns to avoid falling off a mountain and to control the opponent.

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From: bustr
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 08:28 PM

Silat guy in UFC2? What was his name?

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From: spike
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 09:27 PM

Pak Herman talks about that fighter in UFC2. He sometimes says that if you get in a fight a lose it is not Silat that sucks... you suck. He has investigated ideas to have a full contact Silat tournament. Although he hasn't quite figured out how to keep it safe for the competitors. Those of you who study Silat know what I mean.

Great and insightful posts. I am glad to see the participation in this art from other forum members. I hope it keeps growing. I will be seeing Pak Herman this weekend and hosting him for a seminar next month. I will also be going to see Guru Dan next month. If anyone wants information let me know.

Spike

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From: charris
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 09:30 PM

There's no reliable source for silat in my area except for McFann. Is he any good?

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From: spike
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 09:34 PM

Are you asking about Mr. MacFann in th San Francisco area? If so I would say he is probably pretty good. I have not met or trained with him, but I know folks that have.

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From: charris
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 09:55 PM

No, actually he's here in Fayetteville, Ar. Maybe Stovall's heard of him. Anyway, I would give my left nut to get to train with Herman or deThourrs, you guys are lucky. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: spike
Date: 18-Aug-99 | 11:52 PM

One of Pak Herman's certified instructors is named MacFann. I don't know if we are talking about the same person. By the way, I always wear a cup. Some of these techniques just may take your left nut if you are not careful.

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From: Burton
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 12:08 AM

The only drawback with most Silat training methods is that there is not all-out sparring. Usually after a sweep there is some sort of striking follow-up, but no holding position to keep the grounded person from moving. Also, not strong in the clinch. The sweeps work best in punching range. I studied for 1 1/2 years with Herman Suwanda, and for 4 years with Paul DeThouars, and became one of the first instructors under him. I learned many, many valuable things from these two teachers, and I am grateful. Just remember that sparring outside your group against competent fighters is where you will find out if you can really apply what you have learned.

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From: Maenpo
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 12:54 AM

One thing that has not been mentioned regarding the harimau style in NHB fighting is that it is illegal I believe to have one fighter on the ground and the other standing throwing kicks and strikes. The harimau fighters strategy is to drop down and kick at the legs of his opponent while on the ground (Is this allowed under NHB rules). Harimau is one of my favorite silat styles. It is very effective in many self defense situations (exception, multiple opponents).

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From: KDRay
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 05:42 AM

No , no ,no....this post isn't going away.

BACK TO THE TOP !

Train and Enjoy,

KDRay

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From: ov1
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 07:51 AM

uptop

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From: Stovall
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 09:14 AM

charris,

I believe you're talking about Marc MacFann. I know he was doing hardcore groundfighting before anybody in this country ever heard of the Gracies, but I didn't know he was heavy into silat. KDRay could tell you for sure because he trained with MacFann (if I'm not mistaken).

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From: spike
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 10:20 AM

Maenpo,

Harimau is also one of my favorites. However, I disagree with your multiple opponent statement. Given the other options (ie Karate, BJJ, ...) I think Harimau can be extremely effective with it's destructive take-downs.

Spike

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From: spike
Date: 19-Aug-99 | 10:48 AM

Sorry I was interupted by a fire alarm at work. I have to say I agree with Mr. Richardson on the all-out sparring. Thankfully we supplement with healthy doses of Kali. We have not gone FULL out, but we are working towards it.

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