MA History Q & A thread started by TrueFightScholar

Subject: Martial Arts Trivia From Around the World
From: TrueFightScholar
Date: 11-Feb-02 | 09:52 PM

Q: Name two specific incidents (that took place on opposite sides of the world), in which noted swordsmen were defeated by opponents who were armed with wooden staffs.

Hint--both occurances took place in the 17th century.

"Name to specific incidents"

to?

One is Miyamoto Musashi beating fools with swords down with wooden sticks. I don't know the other.

"Name TWO incidents..."

Sorry, folks.

The Musashi answer is actually in two parts; you got half of it right. Now, can you name the reverse incident (Musashi being beaten by a staff wielder--who?)?

As far as the other incident, I'll say that it took place in Spain. Anybody out there know the answer?

Englishman Richard Peeke defeated 3 Spanish rapier and dagger men with a quarterstaff as a captive in Spain in 1625. Here is the story:

" In the year 1625 England and Spain were at war and Peeke was serving in an English naval squadron, under the command of the earl of essex, which was attacking a Spanish naval stronghold. After heavy and accurate bombardment the English captured the fortress, whereupon, they sent forces ashore to carry the attack inland. In the wake of the English landings sailors were sent ashore to forage for food. Richard peeke, of Tavistock in Devon, was among them. Unwisely he foraged alone and paid the price for his mistake when he was attacked by a patrol of spanish musketers. After a furious fight, during which Peeke was wounded twice, he was captured and taken in chains to Cales ( Cadiz ). from there he was transfered to Xeres where he was put on trial. Present at his trial, which in reality was a miitary interrogation, were four Dukes, four Marquesses, and four Earls. After much questioning Peeke was asked if he thought that the Spanish soldiers present would prove such 'hennes' as the English when they landed in England the following yeare.

"No replied Peeke."they would prove to be pullets or chickens."

Peekes insolent reply brought forth an angry response from the Spaniards.

"Darst thou then ( quoth duke Mdyna, with a brow half angry ) fight with one of these Spanish pullets."

Peeke replied that,

"...hee was unworthy the name of an Englishman, that should refuse to fight with one man of any nation whatsoever."

At this Peek's chains and shackles were removed and a space was create for him to fight a Spanish champion by the name of Tiago. both were armed with Rapier and Poinard. The ensuing fight continued for some time before Peeke, using the guard of the poinard, trapped the blade of Tiago's rapier and simultaniously swept the Spaniards feet from under him. Peeke's rapier, hel to the throat of senor Tiago brought forth the necessary capitulation. Spanish pride had been orely wounded and it was demanded of Peeke whether he would be willing to fight another Spaniard. Peeke replied in the affirmative provided he was allowed to fight with :

"... mine owne countrrey weapon called the quarter - staffe."

Upon this remark the Spanish unscrewed the head from a Halbered to create a makeshift Quarterstaff. Armed with the weapon of his choice Peeke stood ready to meet his next challenger. However the Spanish were clearly no longer so confident in the prowess of their soldiers for, to Peeke's consternation, two Swordsmen stepped forward to fight him. Peeke sarcastically asked if more would like to join them. The Duke of Medyna asked how many he desired to fight.

"Any number under sixe". replied Peeke.

The Duke smiled scornfully and beckoned a third man to join the original two. Peeke and the rapier men warily traversed each other, all the while thrusting and warding, till finally Peeke gambled on an all out attack. Hisa first blow left one of his adversaries dead and his subsequent blows left the other two injured and disarmd. No doubt they also left the Spanish seriously questioning the wisdom of their invasion plans. Peeke's feat so impressed his Spanish captors that they released him and granted him safe conduct to England"

People underestimate the Quarterstaff (used the way it was in medieval/renaissance times noe holding it in the center}. There is an incident where a famous Italian rapierman named Rocco Bonetti (not Sifredi)drew his rapier on a fisherman and was beaten down with an oar.

interesting. I like threads like this.

As for the Musashi incident...

Noted swordsman Gonnosuke Muso supposedly used a bo staff to fight against Myamoto Musashi (supposedly armed with 2 swords). Muso was defeated and his life spared. For the next few years Muso tried to think of a way to deafeat Musashi. He finaly came up with the jo staf (about 4 feet long). He met up with Musashi again and defeated him.

As 16th century fencing master George Silver wrote:

"The short staff or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of perfect length, have the advantage against the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, the sword and target, and are too hard for two swords and daggers, or two rapier and poniards with gauntlets, and for the long staff and morris pike"

"The long staff, morris pike, or javelin, or such like weapons above the perfect length, have advantage against all manner of weapons"

Silver explains some of the reasons here:

"The short staff hath the vantage against two swords and daggers, or two rapiers and poinards, and gauntlets, the reason and causes before are for the most part set down already, the which being well considered, you shall plainly see, that whensoever any one of the sword and dagger men, or rapier and poinard men shall break his distance, or suffer the staff man to break his, that man which did first break his distance, or suffer the distance to be won against him, is presently in dangr of death. And this cannot in reason be denied, because the distance appertaining to the staff man, either to keep or break, standeth upon the moving of one large space always at the most, both for his offence or safety. The other two in the breach of their distance to offend the staff man, have always four paces at the least therin they fall to great in number with their feet, and too short in distance to offend the staff man."

He also wrote:

"The short staff is most commonly the best weapon of all other, although other weapons may be more offensive, and especially against many weapons together, by reason of his nimbleness and swift motions, and is not much inferior to the forest bill, although the forest bill be more offensive, the short staff will prove the better weapon"

Very interesting thread. I was going to tell the Gonnosuke Muso incident, but Ye Lunatic beat me to it.

Greg

Ye Lunatic,

Great Posts!!!

Thank you, now if I could only post pics. HTML seems to be disabled again.

TrueFightScholar and Ye Lunatic.. I have a more modern-day fun stumper for you. This has stumped quite a few people.

Who taught Bruce Lee how to use "nunchucks"? Hint- it wasn't anyone working with Japanese Martial Arts, and nunchucks are not covered in Wing Chun.

Dan Inasanto.

Great thread.

Does anyone know how the English methods of quarterstaff fighting differed from those of the Eastern styles?

I wish HTML was on, I would post pics. Well, supposedly the stick was divided into imaginary sections, the ends being called the "quarterpoints".

R.G.A.Winn, a 19th century master at arms, and a noted practitioner of the quarterstaff, Saber, and Singlestick, wrote in his book "Broadsword & Singlestick"

"The quarterstaff gets it's name from the fact that it was gripped at the quarterpoints, and the centre of the staff. With the left hand at the centre, ( palm upwards ) and the right hand at the lower quarterpoint, ( palm down )"

No one really knows what quaterstaff fighting exactly looked like in the Renaissance (it is a dead art, although some clowns may claim they teach an original form of it) and styles must have differed from country to country. In almost all the woodcuts I have seen though, from the 16th century through the 18th, the practitioner was always holding the staff as described above; with one hand on the end, and one near the center, pointing the stick at his opponent.

Great thread!

Being English, I greatly enjoyed the story of the Spanish swordsmen being beaten up with a quarter staff!

But: I gotta say that it does sound a little far fetched?

Are you sure that didn't come from a 'Holywood' version of history?

Ye Lunatic has gone above and beyond the call of duty in answering my first question. Yep, Richard Peeke beat up the 3 Spanish rapier & dagger men, and Musashi was humbled for once by Muso Gonnosuke.

One note on the handling of the quarterstaff: it is possible that the way this weapon was handled by 19th century practioners was a little different than the way it was used in Elizabethan times. I believe that, in the 16th century, the staff was divided into "quarters" (hence its name), and one could shift one's grip from quarter to quarter, as the situation demanded. The typical manner of use was not the "half-staffing" so commonly seen in Robin Hood flicks--instead, the staff could be held, for all intents and purposes, like a two-handed sword (and these two weapons were often wielded according to similar governing principles). Therefore, depending upon the length of the staff (6-8 feet), one could have anywhere from 4 to 6 feet of staff in front of him, giving the user a tremendous reach advantage (what type of wood was used could also of course be a factor here--ash was preferred to oak as it was both lighter and more flexible).

And that reach advantage is one of the assests of the staff that is so stressed by George Silver. It is also one of the main advantages that allowed Peeke to do what he did. Notice what Ye Lunatic quoted from Silver: "The short staff (quarterstaff) hath the vantage over two swords and daggers..." Peeke's victory was not some far-fetched Hollywood tale, it was merely an exceptional example of a weapon that was, as J. Christoph Amberger might say, superior by definition.

As for RobRPM2222's question, Ye Lunatic is also correct about Dan Inosanto teaching Bruce the use of the 'chucks. One can also see a distinct fencing influence on Bruce's style (Bruce had a brother who fenced in college) in the fight sequence in "Game of Death" where Bruce squares off against Dan using a rather thin, tapered piece of rattan or bamboo. Bruce saw the similarities between modern fencing and Wing Chun, and put those similarities to good use. Bruce was obsessed with the concept of the "stop-hit", which is one of fencing's most typical techniques.

Good job, guys... let's keep it going!

As I remember, Gonnosuke Muso's bo was (supposedly) cut by Musashi in their first encounter, and he used the resulting shorter staff in the next, known as a jo.

What kind of wood would one they have used for a staff, anyway?

Great thread, btw.

In Europe, ash was definitely the preferred wood for polearms or staff weapons, although other types of wood were also used. Ash is great because it is lighter than oak (hence can be wielded with greater speed), stronger than oak (always a good thing), and has some flexibility (oak has a tendency to crack or split).

In Japan, one of the main woods of choice was Japanese oak, which should not be confused with the cheap type of oak used commercially for mass-produced bokkens and whatnot. Michael Finn's book on Jodo gives some info on this.

Okay, let's continue...

What specific Western fighting art (and sport) has been theorized as possibly having a strong influence on the Chinese system of Wing Chun?

BONUS: After naming the art in question, can anyone tell me the various differences between the art as originally practiced, and the modern sport of today? I'm talking about both techniques AND rules.

I'll post specifics of what differences I know about between English and Asian staff handling when I have more time.

TFS - I'd guess at boxing.

The main difference between old (ie. pre-Queensbury Rules of 1867) and modern boxing is that wrestling was allowed. Throws above the waist were permitted, for example the cross-buttock throw. Also, a round ended with a take-down/knock-down, rather than after a set time.

According to Pierce Egan's 'Boxiana' (1812), the lead hand was primarily used to block or grab the opponent, and the rear hand was used to launch attacks.

As for Greek boxing, if you want to go that far back, here are some of the differences (NB. as always when dealing with the ancient world, insert "The evidence leads me to believe..." before each of these):

- Open-handed attacks were allowed.

- You could attack the eyes (eg. with your thumb).

- You could hit the groin.

- You could attack a fallen opponent.

- Only a KO or submission ended the fight.

- If you clinched, you got beaten with a stick.

- You were allowed to grab with one hand and hit with the other.

- The lead hand was considered the guarding hand.

- Before the 4th century BC, boxers wore the 'soft thongs' (strips of leather wrapped around the wrist and/or hand). After this, they wore the 'sharp thongs' (they incorporated a hard bit of leather which could cut the flesh).

Some Spaniards went to the Phillipines a long time a go and got their asses handed to them by the local stick weilding Pinoys.

You got the boxing question correct. Good info on the details too. I'll post some stuff on that myself when I have more time.

As for stevekt's commentary on the Spanish in the Phillipines, you're actually not totally correct. The supposed superiority of Filipino fighting arts over Spanish swordsmanship has been played up in recent years, but it has little basis in fact. People are always talking about Magellan's death, but, if you've ever read the period account of it by Antonio Pigafetta, you'd see that the Spanish actually put up a good fight that day on Mactan Island, especially considering that it was less than 50 Spaniards against over 1000 natives!

Also, don't forget that the Spanish were in the Phillipines for well over 300 years. And, don't you find it curious as to why so many terms in the Filipino arts are Spanish expressions (espada y daga, punyo, etc)?

ttt nice tread

PC

I am extremely impressd it TrufighScholar's and IBI's knowledge.

IBI beat me to it. Wing Chun and old English Pugilism look very related. Look at the "centerline" stance that the pugilists used. One interesting thing to note, Jack Dempsey may have been one of the last boxers that had a bit of the "old style" pugilism in his technique. In his book he criticizes modern boxing technique (I think the book was written in the 1950's), saying the jab is too weak and the hand positioning it wrong. Dempsey says it is important to punch with a vertical fist (elbow down just like Wing Chun). He also says it is important to punch with the last 3 knuckles of the fist (also like Wing Chun). This holds a lot of weight to the theory that the Chinese witnessed boxing from English sailors and emulated it. The fact that Wing Chun doesn't really resemble any other form of Kung Fu also strengthens this theory.

Stevevt...what Spaniards are you refering to that got "their asses handed to them" by the local filipino's? If you are referring to the account of Magellan dying on the the shores of the Phillipines, then read what TrueFightScholar wrote. It is true that Magellan had around 50 men and the filipino warriors numbered anywhere from 1,500 to 5,000 (depending on the source). Also the ship was too far out of range to fire it's cannons. Magellan and his men were walking in knee to waist deep water. Here is Pigafetta's account:

"...Recognizing the captain, they turned toward him inasmuch as twice they hurled arrows very close to his head. But as a good captain and knight he still stood fast with some others, fighting thus for more than an hour. And as he refused to retire further, an Indian threw a bamboo lance at his face, and the captain immediately killed him with his lance, leaving it in his body. Then trying to lay hand on his sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because of a wound from a bamboo lance that he had in his arm. Which seeing, all those people threw themselves on him, and one of them with a large javelin (which is like a partisan, only thicker), thrust it into his left leg, whereby he fell face downward. On this, all at once rushed upon him with lances of iron and of bamboo with these javelins, so they slew our mirror, our light, our comfort and our true guide." - Antonio Pigafetta, 1521

According to this account (which is the only one we have) Magellan fought hard for an hour and continued to fight after he was seemingly hit in the face with a bamboo spear. Magellan never even had a chance to draw his sword before he was bum-rushed.

If the Spaniards were supposedly getting their asses kicked in hand to hand fighting, I don't think that the modern filipino arts would be using Spanish terms. Espada y Daga means "sword and dagger" in Spanish. The firearms of the Spanish were not as much of a factor in their defeating the filipino natives as one might think. Even author John Clements notes this when he writes:

"However, a few light-calibre shipboard cannon and inaccurate, slow firing arquebuses in a tropical climate are not about to win a battle over overwhelming odds (back in Europe at the time, they had a lot more guns and still they had to rely on massed pikes and cavalry)."

There seems to be a great influence of Spanish sword (cut and thrust), as well as rapier and dagger. The Spanish soldiers of Magellan's time (1520's) were not using rapiers. The military side arm of that time would have been a broader-bladed cut and thrust sword, but the Spanish were there for 300 years, so I am sure the locals later witnessed plenty of Spanish rapier and dagger that was slowly becoming popular with civilians in the late 16th century. Spanish civilians were still dueling with rapier and dagger in the 18th century (the rapier by then being a long, thin cup hilt), when almost all of Europe was using the smallsword (basically a light, well balanced duelling weapon with no edge). It is also interesting to note the resemblance of footwork in many modern filipino systems and the footwork shown in late 16th to 18th century Spanish rapier manuals (this is just a theory and proves nothing, just interesting to note).

I always heard that the story about Musashi being defeated by the jo was... suspect, at best. Musashi was the most famous swordsman of his time. Defeating him by killing him would gain the victor great honor, while leaving him alive wouldn't. Is there any confirmation of the Musashi defeat, from someone besides a jo practicioner?

I don't know of any other accounts, but when Musashi defeated Muso he spared his life. So when Muso defeated Musashi, he returned the favor.

I had come to understand that Gonnosuke Muso and Miyamoto Musashi had tremendous respect for each other, and avoided each other so that they wouldn't have to fight to death. Just what I had heard.

Excellent thread.

Greg

Interesting! Is there any proof of this pre-Queensbury/Wing Chun connection. I find it a little difficult to imagine though, as Chinese martial artists, until recently, tend to be rather stubborn-minded.

I think we need a

Q&A about Q&A

LOL @ Socal- Hey socal How you doing ? I miss ITG.

This topic should be retitled - "luck wins against unskilled opponents"-- Im sure there were 10,000 sword victories over sticks that went unnoticed . The only reason many stick weapons were used was due to a shortage of metal to forge with in Fuedal Japan. Having a sword was far preferable than Nunchaku or any other woden counterpart for close combat. The same thing in Fuedal Europe- Although Pikemen and lances had their uses. Me, I would not have been a swordsman. I would have been an archer . We just picked you fellers off at long range and head for the hills when ya got too close. :)

"In almost all the woodcuts I have seen though, from the 16th century through the 18th, the practitioner was always holding the staff as described above; with one hand on the end, and one near the center, pointing the stick at his opponent. "

Cool - right now I'm learning some northern chinese long spear technique, and we hold the long spear the same way. The spear is longer than it sounds like the quarterstaff is, (around 10' or a few inches short of that), but it is called the "king of all weapons" by the northern chinese - that is, a guy with a spear could beat a guy with any other weapon.

::"If the Spaniards were supposedly getting their asses kicked in hand to hand fighting, I don't think that the modern filipino arts would be using Spanish terms." ::

That's a really weird statement. Don't you think the fact that the Spaniards took over the Philippines has more to do with it? Something like 1/5 of the Tagalog vocabulary is words of Spanish origin.

The question about Filipino arts vs. Spanish arts seems kind of silly to me anyway. Filipino martial arts aren't as concerned with "lineage" as Japanese arts, for example. They're of a military background and simply use whatever works. With the huge Spanish influence on Filipino culture, of course that will be extended to the martial arts. (with the exception of the Muslims who have stayed seperate)

I just read "Arnis: Reflections and Traditions of the Development of the Filipino Martial Arts" and everyone should drop what they're doing and get it :) One of the great essays in it is "Rizal: Zen Life, Zen Death" by Rene Navarro, where the Filipino hero Jose Rizal is examined as a martial artist (he was a lifelong martial artist) and is compared to Miyamoto Musashi's ideal. You all have probably already checked out the article from INYO about Musashi at http://www.ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Hurst_0101.htm but if you haven't, do it.

Great thread. I love this stuff.

Ye Lunatic,

please cut and paste the URLs of the pix you wanted to post

bobisabovethelaw,

if the spear wielder was highly skilled, he would beat other weapons, if the average foot soldier wielded the spear, he would not beat a highly skilled swordsman.

can you share some of your norther spear training? not to highjack this thread, maybe post in the Q&A weapons?

TIA.

ttmft - GREAT THREAD

Yes, the "king of weapons" thing assumed a skilled spear wielder.

I just started the training two weeks ago. Our "spears" (they don't have a tip) are about 9'8-10" long, made of tapered waxwood. They were spears, they would have a metal point at the end. There were barbs facing the opposite end, and horsehair at the base of the metal tip to keep blood from splashing back onto the shaft.

Right now all we're doing is practicing these half-circular "windshield wiper" motions, used for defense. Later on, we may learn the chinese staff, as well. The staff is shorter and wielded differently. I haven't seen it, but from descriptions it sounds like the technique is more similar to the "robin hood" quarterstaff, that is, you grab it with two hands and whack your opponent with the ends.

first off - all phillipine history was writen by non fillipinos - so you have to take any account w/a grain of salt - since spain was eventually the victor - its easy to see why magellan only had 50 guy's to the PI's 5000.

fillipino knife and sword technique was influenced by both asia and spain - the majaphit empire was long before the spanish invasion - kun tao silat was in the region (indonesia and PI) as long as edged weapons - kun tao is chinese - the way of the hand - or empty hand fighting - fillipinos are in part maylay - heavy chinese influence. the southern (moro) style of sword fighting has its roots in arabic sword fighting. they use very heavy - hacking type blades and movements - the escrimadors or the north have more of a slashing and thrusting technique. when spain forced fillipinos to be sailors and school them in there military arts (sword play) the fillipinos found the swords to long and broke them into shorter swords to match their already formed system - as far as all the spanish terms in escrima - well check this - only some of the terms in some systems use the spanish - pekiti tersia uses the original ilongo not tagalic. spain was later influenced by french, italian and english sword fighting schools, each at different time was the height of swordsmanship. while still under spanish rule, everyone in the world went to a very thin rapier, almost a foil. the perfect sword was supposed to arch and bend in half when thrust against a wall. the theory was a thrust was faster than a hack or slash (thats why the swords got thinner,lighter from the broadsword). the fillipinos never went to that type weapon. as far as sword vs staff - i can give my personal experience. dan inosanto was always having us spar - pairing stick,staff,to handed stick (3.5-4 foot thin staff),knife. when i used dbl stick i beat staff, because i was able to close the distance and block blows faster then the staff could be swung (both single and dbl ended staff technique). however, when i used the staff, i used it as a spear, or thrusting weapon to stop the charge of my oppenant, then once stunned by the poke to the stomach, i was able to use the staff as a striking weapon

staff is also part of FMA - although somewhat different you can still find maylay and indonesian influences. and lets not forget krabi krbong, from thai land - all these countries where part of the majaphiat empire, and it stands to reason that the arts of the different countries would be blend since they were all part of the same army/empire - since spain didnt capture these other countries (holland, england, ect did) - the similarities seem to have been form another way - not via a common capture - more like was spread throughout S.E. asia through china and india- India is another major blood line that runs through the fillipino people. the indians went through the region on their way to china (india guro goes to china to teach shaolin monks) - india has its own indiginous stick,sword, and staff arts - latte' (sp?),gutka to name a few. poor undevelope countries always develope arts with the least cost possible - plenty of rattan all over for impact weapons - the edged weapons still play a great part in some S.E. asia countries. southern fillipines and indonesia still fight with swords -

Naughty Gorilla...There is no way to prove it, but the evidence is fairly strong.

Bob Nelson..."This topic should be retitled - "luck wins against unskilled opponents"-- Im sure there were 10,000 sword victories over sticks that went unnoticed"

I would definitely not call it luck. A staff has much more range, and it can be choked up on, if someone with a shorter weapon gets too close, thus it has the advantage over a sword. Now a sword is much deadlier, but not if you give the staf a blade at the end and turn it into a spear, glaive, bill or halberd with langets. In one on one combat, I would personally take the bladed staff anyday. A sword is more versatile, and better for closer ranged fighting. A good weapon that can be carried around practically. There could very well have been many victories of a sword over a staff, but it depends on who is weilding them. I still say the staff has the advantage.

Bob Nelson..."Having a sword was far preferable than Nunchaku or any other woden counterpart for close combat"

Well, the nunchaku are very close range, plus I feel they are a bad weapon. Just my opinion. If you made one stick on the nunchaku significantly longer and the other a bit shorter you would have a nice flail like the ones used in Europe. As I said, a sword is much deadlier than a plain staff, but I still feel a good practitioner of the quarterstaff would give a swordsman hell, and if the staff had a blade, like I mentioned before, then it is just as deadly as a sword.

hackett..."That's a really weird statement. Don't you think the fact that the Spaniards took over the Philippines has more to do with it? Something like 1/5 of the Tagalog vocabulary is words of Spanish origin."

Yes, I think that had a lot to do with it, but the fact that a great deal of the vocabulary used in the fighting systems is Spanish, shows some evidence that the system adapted and probably incorporated Spanish techniques or may even have been revamped. Especially with terms like "Espada Y Daga" which means "sword and dagger". Sword and dagger fighting was used all over Europe for centuries and complete systems for it can be found in numerous manuals from the 16th through 17th centuries (up till the 18th in Spain).

hacket..."The question about Filipino arts vs. Spanish arts seems kind of silly to me anyway. Filipino martial arts aren't as concerned with "lineage" as Japanese arts, for example. They're of a military background and simply use whatever works. With the huge Spanish influence on Filipino culture, of course that will be extended to the martial arts."

It's not a question of lineage, it is a matter of cultural pride. The filipino's were conquered by the Spaniards and under their rule for 3 centuries. This causes a lot of anger and many people like to downplay the Spanish because the are the "bad guys". It's not fun to think that your people may have adapted much from their former overlords, especially the way they fight. It is natural cultural pride to want to say "this is our own". Some filipino kali masters even admit the large influence of the Spaniards on their system.

Stickgrappler..."if the spear wielder was highly skilled, he would beat other weapons, if the average foot soldier wielded the spear, he would not beat a highly skilled swordsman." Not necessarily. Of course it is possible for an "average skilled" spearman to get beat by a highly skilled swordsman, but being that the spear has the advantage my nature, it could easly go the other way.

"The short staff or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of perfect length, have the advantage against the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, the sword and target, and are too hard for two swords and daggers, or two rapier and poniards with gauntlets, and for the long staff and morris pike." - George Silver, 1599

lunitic- no comment on my post?

I was getting there...lol

sreiter..."first off - all phillipine history was writen by non fillipinos - so you have to take any account w/a grain of salt - since spain was eventually the victor - its easy to see why magellan only had 50 guy's to the PI's 5000"

I am not sure what you're getting at here.

"everyone in the world went to a very thin rapier, almost a foil. the perfect sword was supposed to arch and bend in half when thrust against a wall"

I believe the weapon you are referring to here is a smallsword.

"The short staff is most commonly the best weapon of all other"

If you've ever been to a Dog Brothers gathering especially the early ones, you'd have seen all manner of weapons beig defeated consistently by the single stick...Escrima/Kali.

Ye Lunatic, good stuff. I had heard about the wing chun boxing connecton also.

sreiter... if your screen name was simply "reiter", well, that's another term for a 16th century German mercenary cavalryman ("ritter")!

Anyway, Ye Lunatic made a good point about cultural pride and the effect it can have on things like martial arts history. I personally like Amante P. Marinas Sr's take on things in his book, "Pananandata Yantok at Daga: Filipino Stick and Dagger"-- "There is no doubt that Spanish sword and dagger fighting techniques greatly influenced the development of the Phillipine yantok at daga. This is quite obvious. Phillipine and Spanish warriors fought running battles for most of the 350 years of Spanish colonization. Techniques were exchanged during fights to the death. Of course, techniques could have been acquired also through stealth by both sides."

It is particularly relevant that Marinas spoke of Spanish "sword and dagger" as opposed to rapier and dagger. Also as Ye Lunatic mentioned, the type of sword (espada) being used by the conquistadors in the 16th century was a stout, double-edged, cut-and-thrust weapon, about 3 feet long, with a complex handguard like later swept-hilt rapiers. The later, longer, thinner cup-hilt that the Spanish made so famous did not come about until the following century, and was more popular in civilian circles anyway. A few Filipino or Phillipine-trained authors, like Marinas and Mark Wiley, are willing to admit that there was probably a strong Spanish influence on Filipino MA, and that the Spanish did not simply routinely have their asses handed to them over and over by the locals. Wiley even mentioned how, in the 1570's, the Spaniards and Filipinos actually worked together in order to defeat the Sino-Japanese pirates of Lim-Ah-Hong and Sioco.

Other authors on Filipino MA have often dismissed the Spanish influence, and have instead stressed how the conquistadors, after suffering several defeats, "came back with firearms"--though these writers never indicate that 16th century matchlocks were of little use in the Phillipine jungles, as it required some 30 steps to load and fire one round.

Also, sreiter, I am curious as to what influence the English had on Spanish swordfighting skills--in fact, I would also like to inquire about the supposed Italian and French influences. The Spanish method of the so-called "mysterious circle", with the cup-hilt rapier, was to be used by the Spanish at least through the 18th century, when the rest of Europe had long given up rapiers in favor of the smallsword. Eventually, the cup-hilt rapier disappeared in Spain too, to be replaced by French foil and epee fencing and Italian/Hungarian saber technique--but this was at a time when fencing became purely a sporting endeavor, fairly far removed from its martial origins. The English retained some practical aspects with their singlestick fencing traditions, but I'm personally unaware of the Spanish doing singlestick, per se. Do you know something I don't? I am very curious now.

Great debate indeed, fellas!

And here's a short list of Spanish terms in Filipino MA:

Arnis de Mano, Esgrima, baston, bolo, doce tero, mano-mano, medio, ocho-ocho, punyo, riterada, espada y daga, & estoque. There are others...

Okay, guys, how about this one...

What battlefield grappling art(s) were used by the samurai of old? Hint: jujutsu is not part of the answer; I'm looking for pre-17th century arts.

Even though I've asked the next question, feel free to continue on the Filipino MA or staff vs sword debate. ALSO--if anyone else has any cool questions, then post 'em! We already had one regarding just who taught Bruce Lee how to use the 'chucks... so let's keep it going!

Even though I've already asked the next question, please feel free to continue the Filipino MA/staff vs sword debate too.

Also, if anyone else has any cool questions to stump us, post 'em! We've already had one on who taught Bruce Lee how to use the 'chucks--let's have some more!

Please pardon the duplicate message above...

Was sumai (forerunner of sumo) used by the samurai?

Sir, please join the debate!

That's one of the two arts I know of, IBI. Do you know the other one?

TTT

I gotta read this when I get back from work. What I wrote about the Filipinos and the Spaniards was based on some snippet I read in Black Belt Magazine like 15 years ago. Before I read the whole post, did the Spaniards with swords get waxed by the Filipinos with sticks or not?

stevekt,

What you read in BLACK BELT 15 years ago was typical of most MA historical "research" (ie., none) at the time, but hey, that was then, and this is now. Time to set the record straight (as far as we can).

There is no doubt that the Spaniards were defeated from time to time in the jungles of the Phillipines. However, the same can be said of the Filipinos themselves--they, too, were bested in combat by the foriegn invaders, hence the subjugation of their country for the next 350 years or so. The situation was probably similar to what Alexander the Great and his Macedonians encountered when they fought Porus and his Indians--here you had two forces of skilled fighting men who were dealing with mutually unfamiliar styles of combat. Losses were doubtlessly heavy on both sides, regardless of who ultimately won. Also, the Filipinos were not armed merely with sticks--they had spears, bows and arrows, and swords and knives of various designs. Pigafetta describes these in his account.

BYT everyone, virtually all Filipino MA authors use the "50 Spaniards vs over 1000 Filipinos" figure for the Battle of Mactan Island. I'll admit that I've never heard of the 5000 natives figure, though.

yawara? Or is that just jujutsu?

Yawara would be my call as well.

Anybody else here have a subscription to "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" because it sounds like you all do!

Great thread

true-fight- my last name is reiter - i traced it back to austria (one account has it from holland) - perhaps you have a point in it's germanic origins - very cool - thanx - as far as the english and french and italian influences on spanish fighting - i cant remember exactly where i learnt it - i'm a FMA instructor, although i havent really practiced in 2 years, but for a time it was my main art. as a guess, i either learnt it from, dan inosanto, anthony de longes(the top hollywood stage fighting stunt coordinator - it was him in the magic circle episode of highlander, just in case you saw it,i took a few classes, now a days the only way to learn that type of sword fighting is to take stage fighting classes), or at the metropolitian musem of art sword exibit, or a video tape i have on the history of sword fighting. other than that, it could have been anywhere. lastly - remember that mindineo (sp?) never fell to the spanish, although they tried. you kind of arent including this in your spanish victory for 350 years over the PI. the blade beat the gun in the jungle.

lunitic - i'm just saying that some you make points for spain being so superior, and i was mearly pointing out historical reference arent always non-bias

KENWINGJITSU,

yes, single stick on the DB vids "won" out (no trophies were given) vs many diverse weapons, but of course most of the time, the single stick wielder was Eric Knaus. his wins could also be that he was that much more skilled with single stick than his opponent with their chosen weapon.

i know the whip wielder was pretty skilled though (Tom Meadows).

Yeah, I read JAMA.

Kumi Uchi was the other old grappling art of the samurai. It was specifically meant for armored opponents and was the forerunner of Jiu Jitsu.

sreiter..."the blade beat the gun in the jungle"

As TFS mentioned, 16th century matchlocks were of litle use in the jungle. The black powder was susceptible to humidity and they took a loooong time to load.

"lunitic - i'm just saying that some you make points for spain being so superior, and i was mearly pointing out historical reference arent always non-bias"

It is true, many historical references are bias, but if you are referring to Magellan's 50 men, it is well documentened as to how many men he had aboard his ship. I believe that by the time his crew made it back to Spain (after circumnavigating the globe) there were 18 left out of an original 237. As for the filipino warriors, I doubt the estimates of 5000, the most conservative are at around 1000.

Mark Wiley was mentioned as someone who gives a balanced view of the Filipino arts and he edited the book I mentioned above, "Arnis: Reflections and Traditions of the Development of the Filipino Martial Arts". I agree that there's a Spanish influence on the Filipino arts, I just don't think that the Spanish names of Filipino arts = Spanish superiority. There is romanticization of the Filipino arts like there is in any other martial art, unfortunately.

BTW, the island that sreiter is misspelling :) is Mindanao, which was never taken by the Spanish.

TrueFightScholar-- I agree with your point and your list of Spanish terms in Filipino martial arts is great, but it merits mention that a lot of those words are of Spanish origin but they're corruptions of the original and wouldn't make much sense to a Spaniard today :) You probably know that Arnis de mano came from "arnes de mano", or armor of the hands, for example.

Nobody else found my Musashi/Jose Rizal stuff interesting? Oh well. :(

ttt

ttt

Do the Dog Brothers have an art that is historic or are they reinventing as they go?

Stickgrappler: "yes, single stick on the DB vids "won" out (no trophies were given) vs many diverse weapons, but of course most of the time, the single stick wielder was Eric Knaus. his wins could also be that he was that much more skilled with single stick than his opponent with their chosen weapon."

Can you give your opinion on what you believe is the best weapon all other thing being equal.

sdumas,

it really is hard to say, because there are so many factors involved, one or other fighter (presupposing a gentlemanly fight between 2 opponents) could have an off day but normally would be better than other, environment where the fight takes place (classic JKD example - do not take a staff into a phonebooth for a fight or the other classic example, don't kick while on ice), weapon breakage, fighting a freak who feels no pain even when a limb is broken, etc.

"best" is so relative as you can see. but hypotehetically speaking, if all things are equal, i think either spear or long pole would pose a real challenge. not sure if your question was specifically meant as single stick vs. ??? or just king of all weapons. of course, this discussion is presupposing non-projectile weapons such as repeating crossbow, longbow, .45, 9mm, uzi, MP5, etc. and pertaining to trad. MA weapons. sword is good too, but vs. spear-wielder who maintains his range, sword is in for a tough time.

with single stick, work on your footwork, if it's a long weapon you are facing, work on your closing skills to corto range, if it's a short weapon, stay at largo range and pick him apart with your stick combos.

bottom line, it's not the weapon (or style) but the fighter. if the fighter is good, he makes the style/system tough. granted a good style/system helps, but if the fighter is not properly trained, the style/system is naught. e.g. i'm not professional racecar driver, if you gave me a porsche or ferrari, i will not drive is as well as the pro. we all know the porsche/ferrari is better than a ford tempo or dodge k car. i'm sure you get my point.

with regard to DBMA - i'm pretty sure their system is continually evolving. 1st case in point, when they started their minimal armor real contact stickfighting, they discovered grappling happens even in stickfighting. Guro Crafty Dog (Marc Denny) was one of the first to integrate Machado JJ to his stickfighting to come up with some stickgrappling moves. some of the others just clinched and literally rolled on ground not knowing what to do, avoiding getting hit by stick at largo range. Guro Crafty with integration of Machado JJ has made stickgrappling an advanced skill (NOTE: i'm just a beginner in stickwork and grappling).

2nd case in point, the DB stickgrappling prior to training with Dr. Gyi of ABA Bando was mostly ILK and maybe PT. after training with Dr. Gyi, they have a better understanding of what to do while stickgrappling.

3rd case in point: Guro Crafty, head instructor of DBMA used to approach standing stickgrappling one way. after training with Rico Chapparelli, he has a better understanding of the standing stickgrapple range. he invited Rico to teach at the DBMA Camp last year, sadly i could not go :-(

check out Ashley Bass' site and click photos and text link. he has an archive of the DB techniques. in one of them you will see the triangle choke. Ashley Bass' link is on my FMA page:

http://go.to/stickgrappler

i think i'm starting to ramble. long day. HTH. any q's, post away. i recognize sreiter from ED, so he is better qualified to speak of FMA than me.

hackett,

i'm printing this and reading on train ride home. it's too long to read at work. good stuff!!

ttt

i know how fast threads can disappear

heading home with reading material

hey stickfighter- thanks for the nod :) ED = escrima digest. marc and eric knauss did incorporate bjj into their (semi)Real stickfighting. however i wouldnt call it stickgrappling at that point. they used one move that marc misnamed the fang choke (the fang is something completely different in FMA terms). other than that, they pretty much just did bjj on the ground. dan inosanto actually shows stick grappling, from takedowns to various chokes to arm and leg bars to controling uses. marc was present at some of these classes and i think he has incorporated them into the dbma system (which is just a hodge podge of techs marc learnt from various sources and throw together for the most point.) he also has worked with several BB's to get their take on what would be a bjj answer to certain situations on the ground against a (stick) armed indiviual - one problem though is the non-leathal nature of the grappling - even with minimum protection on the head - it still is way different than with no head gear - when you change the game and subsitute a edged weapon, all that stuff goes out the window - while dan does teach grappliing against a knife (silat does too - a karumbit is nasty) this is a last ditch, save your life scenerio - not something you want to do. i'd like to point out as well that in DBMA grappling occurs because the armor allows you to - and the lack of skill of the fighters - i'm not saying the fighters arent skilled, however if you/they were to try to close on someone like GT gaje, dan inosanto, punong guro edgar (RIP)- they wouldnt get close - even at eric's level (which is very good) - it's tough for people to get close enough to him to grapple - i cant recall seeing people get in on him - they might have - i dont recall - i recall eric taking others down - (he is a high level purple)

Although much has been written about Miyamoto Musashi, most of it has been in recent times, probably the last 30 years or so. In reality it's amazing how much we DON'T know about him.

I think a lot of what we THINK we know about him is based on the novel written ny Yoshikawa Eiji, who penned his famous book only 75 years ago. Musashi's duels actual and fabricated occurred around the time of the civil war between the Tokugawa and Toyotomi clans in the late 1500's to early 1600's.

I've read many varying accounts of the encounters between Muso Gonnosuke and Musashi, and it seems any conclusive outcome is almost impossible to verify. Some say they only sueled once, and Musashi won that. Others say they fought twice and Musashi won both. And still yet, some say they fought twice with Musashi winning the first and Gonnosuke winning the return match. In this last version it is said that after being defeated, Gonnosuke meditated in the mountains until he became enlightened with the idea of shortening the 72" bo down to the 60" jo. Then avenging his earlier loss. It makes a nice story, but again it's close to impossible to verify. Even in the various weekly dramas and movies their encounter has been staged in different ways.

From what I've read only a few of his duels should be considered reliably possible. The duels that seem to have the best possiblitity of occurring are his battles with the Yoshioka school, the Hozoin and the famous duel with Sasaki Kojiro. In some chronicles it is written that in their duel Musashi defeated Yoshioka Seijuro the head of the clan with only his wooden bokuto. Go Rin No Sho is written in his words, but outside of his first two duels which took place during his early teens, no mention is made of the more famous matches.

I wish we could know with more certainty what his life was like. If I had a time machine one thing I'd like to observe are his duels and witness his "mu" in a life or death struggle.

Don Draeger makes some interesting claims about Musashi in another article on INYO. ( http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsdraeger_musashi.htm )

He says that Go rin no sho was not written by him but by followers who came after him (not sure if you're saying that in your post when you write that it was "written in his words"), that he was NOT the greatest swordsman of his time, and that several of the paintings attributed to Musashi are most likely the work of someone else.

Thomas Cleary's book "The Japanese Art of War" gives an interesting impression of Musashi. Cleary states that from what we can gather, Musashi never really fully attained a deep level of Zen. According to Cleary, Musashi was too obsessed with his lifelong dedication to dueling. He mentions that Musashi reportedly died of an ulcer. Then again, maybe he did attain Zen and simply gave the impression that he didn't. Confusing us could be seen as following his martial principles. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve after his death though; so maybe someone else can shed some light on that.

Musashi's importance to me is as a reportedly great swordsman who left behind a book of strategy with (basically) an interesting combination of Sun Tzu's Art of War, and the Zen of his time, applied to swordsmanship but also largely applicable to life in general.

But, what do I know...

TH

Here's another Musashi link. Translation's so-so though. http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/letters/letter2.htm

The founder of Kyokushin karate, Masutatsu Oyama, is asked about Musashi by a young karate student. Oyama calls Musashi the greatest swordsman in Japan's history, as he took on all comers and passed his knowledge on to the future generations. Oyama emulated Musashi when he secluded himself in the mountains of Chiba prefecture for a year's time in the late 1940s. Is Oyama is acting on legend rather than fact here? Maybe that's not important.

TH

some possible grips with a staff be it 3', 4', 5', 6'+

baseball grip = 2 hands on one end, one FMA style comes to mind: tapado, and i believe GT Leo Gaje teaches 4'-5' staff with baseball grip.

from CMA comes these names:

double-ended: both ends of the staff are used, like in robin hood and pugil stick fights

single-ended: only one end is used (like a spear). in CMA/WCK, usually this one end is tapered. generally only the last 6" are used. mainly used for thrusting or "biu gwun" aka "biu lung cheung" (darting dragon spear). if i understood what i read from the prev. posts, the old-time quarterstaff was single-ended.

--------------

i have no evidence, but i believe WCK and old-time bareknuckle boxing developed separately but coincidence resembles each other a bit. i have heard a rumor that aikijujitsu (precursor to aikido) developed from CMA's bagua/pa kua. again i have no evidence, but i think it developed separately. chalk both up to synchronicity

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sreiter mentions anthony delongis in the highlander episode with the spanish school of swordplay. it was named "duende". i have not seen it.

---------------

truefightscholar,

i have probably tons of q's but no answers :-(

i hear you asking for example :-) so, for example, did WCK come from old-time boxing; did aikijujitsu come from bagua/pakua; how did WCK developed; did Chang San-feng developed Taijiquan/taichichuan; what is the influence if any of fukien CMA on JMA's sanchin and there's a style of karate which mark stewart has 2 vids from unique on whose name escapes me presently; what are the relationships of CMA's bak mei and southern praying mantis and southern dragon, and the list goes on....

------------

pls ttt this - GREAT THREAD!!!

western boxing owes a great deal to FMA - boxers used to stand and punch with their palms inverted - faceing upwards - there was a great fillipino boxer (dont remember his name - who was schooled in panatukan - they stood with their fists in a manner that resembles the fighters of today - he was so good they changed there methods to mimic his ala the fallsberry flop (sp?)- panatukan took their que from kali (arnis/escrima) - picture yourself holding a knive in each hand and holding it in a "ice pick" type grip - looks just like a boxers stance, dont it? - also there was another great fillipino boxer who was very closer to ali. he shuffled long before ali did. it's said ali got his foot work straight from the fillipino-

-----------------------------------------------------

there's a guy who is alive today that a japaneese sword master - the guy does movies - he was in one with christopher lambert - where these ninja's are after him cause he saw some chick get killed after he had sex w/her - anyway he the greatest living japaneese sword dude alive - i heard he is actually one of the best ever

sreiter...I heard the "FMA influenced western boxing" story just a few nights ago. I just don't think it makes sense. It sounds suspect, but I would like to know more about it either way.

sreiter..." boxers used to stand and punch with their palms inverted - faceing upwards "

I have never heard nor seen that one. Pugilists and boxers up until Dempsey's time tended to hit with a vertical fist. Punching with your palm upwards all the time doesn't seem very practical.

ye - go back to the 1800's - early 1900's - i cant believe you havent seen that - even at age 28. - havent you seen people who stood like that in a joking manner - saying put'em up, put'em up - sometimes they would make a "riding a bicycle" type motion with their hands while moving around - punching that way wasnt very practical (except upper cuts) - not sure if every punch was like that - but the jab sure was - so i imagine the cross was too. it was more a stance type thing - and it allowed the snap of the punch when twisting your wrist when delivering your blow - they found out how impractical it was when they got their asses beat by the fillipino - LOL - think of my referrence to fossberry - now-a-days - i'm sure people dont think high jumping by doing a forward roll over a high bar is very practical - but before fossberry blew everyone out of the water and changed the sport forever - that was conventional wisdom

I have seen that "mock boxing/fighting Irish" stance and it is erroneous.

Look at some actual photos or drawing of early puglists/boxers. Photos of Jack Johnson, John L. Sullivan, etc. Looks similar to a Wing Chun hand position.

The lead palm was facing slightly up because that was primarily a blocking arm. With the lead hand up and the palm facing them, they would use the side of the arm that was facing their opponent to block. The rear hand was placed (vertical fist) over the heart.

"punching that way wasnt very practical"

You're right, constantly punching with your palms up isn't very practical, that's why they didn't do it. Like I said, when they punched it was more with a vertical fist. If it wasn't practical, why would they be using it for so long in a dynamic, contact sport?

Yes, there are many different, practical ways to fight, but a high jump is different than fighting. I understand that your are giving the example of a paradigm shift with the Fosbury high jump reference, but I think what we are talking about is slightly different here. In any contact, combat sport you are fighting against a live opponent, if a combat style is impractical when being used against a live, resisting opponent, it will show. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to hit effectively. We are talking about a sport that was around for hundreds of years...you don't think that in all time boxers didn't figure out how to punch effectively?

The reason the Fosbury flop was possible was because of the introduction of a cushioned landing mattress. The old style of high jumping was developed when sand was used as the landing surface. My point is, that old style of jumping -known as the straddle- was very practical when the landing surface was sand. Only after the introduction of the cushioned mat did other possiblities for jumping open up and that is when Fosbury found it practical to jump over backwards.

How does this relate? Well, old style pugilists fought bare-knuckle, and much later with very small, light gloves. The style they had was very good at deflecting and delivering bare-knuckle shots round after round. When the gloves in boxing started getting bigger and thicker, it became more practical to deliver and block the shots differently. I am sure you know that sometimes putting your hands up in a boxing manner leaves some more danger of a smaller, bare hand slipping straight through to the body or face than it would if both opponents were wearing gloves. Am I saying that modern boxing is ineffective without gloves? No, but if you fight with 12 or 16oz gloves with an opponent wearing the same, and then you both take them off, you will find there is more danger of a hand slipping through your guard. The old style of boxing developed using bare knuckles and it was practical for that purpose.

I happened to find your Musashi/Jose Rizal reference interesting :-), AND the "Arnis: Reflections of..." book by Wiley is great. I have obtained much useful info from that text.

We have 2 votes for yawara and 1 vote for kumi-uchi, and the winner is... KUMI-UCHI!!!

Congrats, Ye Lunatic.

sreiter,

Unless I'm mistaken, "reiter" is the Dutch form of the German word "ritter", which can mean either "knight" (in the cavalry sense) or simply "rider". The mercs I mentioned earlier were known as "Schwartz Ritter" ("Black Riders") because they tended to ride black horses, and they also blackened their armor, to appear more intimidating to the enemy. They were essentially mounted pistoleers, as their arsenal consisted of at least two (often more) big "horse pistols", and a double-edged broadsword. Their method of attack was known as the "caracole", where individual lines of horsemen would ride up to the enemey, discharge their pistols, and then retire to allow the next line to do the same. The retiring ranks would then reload, and begin the process all over again. The broadsword was used for the melee which often followed the original fusilade.

These guys fought all over Europe in the latter half of the 16th century.

Thought you might find that interesting...

sreiter,

There may have been a misunderstanding on my part in regards to our talk about various European countries influencing Spanish fencing in the 16th-17th centuries. Of course you are correct in that the fighting arts of one's opponent(s) will naturally have an influence on one's own combative disciplines. The Spanish were clearly influenced by their many enemies--the English, Dutch, Moors, Turks, and Filipinos, to name some of the major ones. Likewise, the Filipinos were influenced by the Spanish, the Chinese, the Japanese, etc. However, in both of the above cases, the arts in question nevertheless retained their identity, ie., Spanish fencing remained distinctly Spanish, and FMA remained distinctly Filipino. I believe I was confusing BASIC combative influences with ADOPTIONS. By adoptions, I am referring to "foriegn" arts that were taken up by other peoples wholesale. A good example would be 16th century Italian rapier fencing, which was embraced enthusiastically by the Elizabtethan English, who used it to supplement their already-formidable arsenal of backsword/broadsword, quarterstaff, and bill technique. The 15th-16th century Northern Italians are another good example, as they adopted the German two-handed sword (zweihander/bidenhander) and referred to it as the "spada da due mane" or "spandone". In turn, the 16th century Germans, like their English counterparts, adopted the Italian rapier, which they called the "rappir".

The Spanish do not seem to have ever done this, as far as I can ascertain. True, they used the two-handed sword as well (the "espadon" and the smaller "montante"), but I have not been able to verify the German influence, since I have not seen any Spanish manuals that show two-handers in use (Italian manuals, on the other hand, display a clear German influence--many of the stances even have Italian equivalents of the original German terms). In fact, the Spanish retained the cup-hilt rapier long after the rest of Europe had switched over to the French smallsword. In any case, I apologize if there was a misunderstanding on the issue on my part.

You mentioned stage combat guys like Mr. de Longis as being to only option availible to people who want to learn what little is still known about the "mysterious circle"--but there is actually a fencing master, Ramon Martinez, who apparently teaches what "remains" of the Spanish system at his schools in NYC and Jersey City. Martinez teaches this stuff not as stage combat, but as actual fencing and fighting. I am not certain as to the "lineage" of Martinez's training, but I have met the man, and I can say that he is obviously intelligent and appears quite genuine, even though I still question whether what he teaches is legitimate 17th-18th century Spanish technique or not. I question this only because every other Spanish master for at least the past 100 years or so has taught a combination of French foil and epee, and Italian saber.

sreiter,

True, the Spaniards never conquered the Moros of the southern Phillipines, but that does not mean that they couldn't fight either. That was the main point that both Ye Lunatic and myself were trying to make; you mentioned how Ye Lunatic was apparently trying to make the Spanish seem "superior" as fighting men, when, in actuality, we were merely trying to correct a "lack of balance" that has existed within the FMA community for years now. This whole thread proves that. For decades, it has been common in both books and magazine articles, to casually describe the Spanish/Filipino conflict of being nothing more that a bunch of supposedly unskilled (but well-equipped) invaders (the Spanish), getting their asses kicked by the martial masters of the Islands (the Filipinos). The lack of both serious historical research, not to mention an overall ignorance of Spanish martial/military capabilities, has been the cornerstone of this type of writing. Only now, with the writings of FMA practitoners like Mark Wiley and Amante Marinas, has this issue begun to be corrected by people actually within FMA circles. Fencer and Western martial arts researcher John Clements has also authored a very good, rather critical article on the topic, but I can see people from an FMA background accusing him of martial bias, because of the fact that his own training is geared around the Western arts. How come, then, nobody ever accuses the FMA community of bias in this respect?

I never said that the Filipinos couldn't fight--I wouldn't be practicing Kali myself if I though so. Obviously, they gave the Spanish a hard time (and the Spanish admit this), but the fact remains that the Spanish conquered 2 thirds of the Islands, and held them for some 350 years. If we are going to address the issue of the Moros, we may as well also mention that the US Army (with modern firearms and artillery) had an extremely difficult time with the Muslim population as well, from 1898-1902 (and isolated fighting continued for at least a another decade after this). Of course the Moros were top-notch fighting men, but it was also their fanaticism and intimate knowledge of the terrain which influenced the outcome of things. To say that the Spaniards were incompetent because they failed to conquer Mindanao is like saying that the ancient Romans were incompetent because they didn't pursue the subjugation of the Germanic territories--in both cases, such a conclusion is absurd. The Romans simply saw the conquests beyond the Rhineland as not being worth it, and the same is probably true for the Spanish in Mindanao.

There are plenty of other examples. The Spanish also failed to subjugate the Protestant Dutch during the same time they were fighting the Moros. The Spanish Army of Flanders was perhaps the finest fighting force in the Western World at that time, and yet they still could not stop the freedom-loving Netherlanders from getting their independence back. Likewise, on the other side of the world, the Japanese (who had the finest army in Asia at that time) failed to take Korea in the 1592-98 War. War and fighting are not just about superior techniques or tactics or strategy--the DESIRE TO WIN is also infinitely important. In the case of the Phillipines, the Moros clearly wanted their freedom more than the Spanish wanted to possess Mindanao. It really boils down to that.

Also, being a practitioner of both fencing and FMA myself, I feel that studying both Western and Eastern approaches is important, to get a broader perspective on combat. This is, after all, what both the Spanish and Filipinos did--the Filipinos observed the swordfighting style of the invaders, and the Spanish took note of the combative skills of the natives. The survivors on both sides doubtlessly came out with more overall fighting knowledge. To the best of my ability, I intend to do the same.

After all, it's "Mixed Martial Arts", right? :-)

Stickgrappler,

I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread, and I want to make a few comments and also ask you some questions, in regards to various weapons, when I have more time (hopefully tonight, if this thread is still alive). Thanks!

ttt

sreiter,

Bro, I've gotta go with Ye Lunatic on the pugilism thing--I don't know where you got that story from (about the FMA influence), but that one, with all due repsect, sounds completely ridiculous to me. Ye Lunatic explained the old style of pugilism better than I can, and he certainly offered a solid counter to every point you made. Your whole argument is based on this "palm up" punch nonsense, and that is NOT how old-time pugilists punched.

Jack Dempsey, in his book on boxing that was written in the 1950's, talked about how the boxers of old used to punch--instead of the "modern" punch with full rotation of the fist, to strike with the index and middle knuckles, the pugilists used the vertical punch, and struck with the bottom 3 knuckles, ala Wing Chun. Dempsey even goes so far as to mention the so-called "power line"--the 3 lower knuckles being in line with the forearm--which also sounds like Wing Chun. Dempsey claimed that this was how he was taught to box, and he also stated that it was a superior method, when compared to modern boxing. After viewing Dempsey's 1919 bout with Jess Willard (where he broke Willard's jaw in several places), I'd have to agree with him.

Besides, I really cannot see practical fighting men like James Figg or Jem Mace punching in the "palm up" manner you described--it makes no sense at all.

Would Jack Dempsey's book be the best place to start if one wanted to understand what bare-knuckle boxing realy looked like?

Boy, there are so many Q's I want to ask I don't know where to start!

So is it possable that for MMA modern boxing's style may not be best? It does seem like most fighters ashew modern tech's.

Keep it coming!

TrueFightScholar,

i did not see your post until now. we posted almost the same time.

ask away. i'm no expert or even advanced nor an instructor, just a beginner with 6 mos solo training. but i love MA, due to family, cannot devote time to training yet. kids are still too young and need much attention.

i think i'm getting more out of this thread than you are from my posts.

going back to staff, i could be wrong, from my playing around with staff, the shorter the staff, the more dynamic it is, that is you can change grips. i forgot who mentioned michael finn's jodo book, but that's a prime example of how dynamic it is. i used to just use the shorter staff in the double-ended grip, but after going to a crafty dog staff seminar, and checking out the finn book (and dave lowry's jodo book and one other jodo book which is put out by unique and is an odd-shaped book), it's so dynamic. playing around with the baseball grip now and flow to a dynamic combo by using the back end a la jodo.

I gotta get to work (my late day), but I thought I'd check the thread one last time before heading out. I'll be back tonight, after 8 PM EST.

sdumas--Dempsey's book is probably the best single source for understanding the actual technical aspects of pugilism, even though that style was already on its way out when Dempsey was around in the 1920's (but even after the introduction of gloves, several aspects of the old pugilistic style remained for quite some time). John F. Gilbey's (Robert W. Smith's) "Western Boxing and World Wrestling" book also offers some useful insights into the old methods.

stickgrappler--we have a lot to talk about, in regards to sticks and staffs and swords. It will require time, however, so hopefully this thread will still be here when I get back.

Now, for the next question...

What Japanese sword is the technical/tactical equivilent of the European two-handed sword (zweihander, spadone, claymore, et. al)?

Man, is this fun...!

Would you happen to have th ISBN # for Dempsey's book?

TFS,

katana?

i will ttt this if it gets to the bottom.

some stick/staff books:

Jodo: Way of the Stick Finn Stick Fighting (paper) Hatsumi Jo: The Japanese Short Staff Zier & Lang (the odd-shaped) Jo: Art of the Japanese Short Staff Lowry

there's more.

-------

sdumas,

58OMAB02 Boxing: A Self-Instruction Manual Haislet $9.00

http://ryukyu.com/book/58omab.html

generally this book is rare or hard to get. i believe they are probably selling a copy. i know there is the hardcover, and then the golden gloves org enlarged the pix and the print to fit 8.5" x 11" and word for word is the same as haislett's HC, but just pix and size r diff.

sdumas,

sorry OD'd on valentine day's cookies and chocolates.

you wanted dempsey and not haislett. sorry. will see if i can find 4 u.

Isn't "No-dachi" the name for a Japanese two handed sword?

Sdumas, personally I think most MMAists just don't know much in the way of boxing. (notice I said "most")

Most MMA strikers use a low roundhouse kick rather than a jab, and flail with punches from the outside. They strike well in the clinch, when boxers would be seperated. Murillo Bustamante is one exception who uses straight punches and sets his offense up with a jab.

I also think that the level of ability in MMA grappling is generally much, much higher than the striking.

On the subject of Filipino martial arts and western boxing, Stickgrappler has an article on his site about it at http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/articles/fmabox.html. I don't necessarily agree with it, but there's some fun ideas to throw around there. People say all kinds of funny stuff about boxing in martial arts circles. I remember reading that Ali's jab was really a backfist and he got it from karate. Uh, no.

TH

that article has been debated before. generally no definite answer IIRC on ED. i heard dan inosanto got that info from an old book which was not properly researched. and his sis wrote the article and was married to john steven soet the editor of inside karate at the time. so article got pub'd.

ttt

There's been more useful/interesting info posted in the last 3 days here than in the last 3 months on escrima-digest!!

sovann,

i've been bad, i have let my ED reading slip and am so behind in favor of here and 1 or 2 other forums.

but after the 10th datu thread, i gave up ED for awhile :-)

i generally don't frequent UG only check out the JKD, weapons, boxing and kickboxing q&a's. if i have time will check the other q&a's and the UG. boy am i glad i checked UG and found this thread.

I reckon 'no-dachi' as well.

Dempsey's book is out of print at the moment, so you'll have to check second-hand/rare book dealers. Amazon might have some in their Z Shops. It's a good book if you can track it down.

giddyup

1. Vasco de Gamma or another Spanish/Portuguese explorer was killed by a Phillipino king I think. It was sword against sticks.

2. dunno

TrueFightScholar,

re: John F. Gilbey's (Robert W. Smith's) "Western Boxing and World Wrestling" - i may be wrong, i thought i heard that this book (or did Gilbey have another one) which was tongue-in-cheek.

DOH! sorry, i think i know the other one, it just came to me: SECRET FIGHTING ARTS OF THE WORLD i believe is the title.

Stickgrappler,

You still read rec.martial-arts? That was how I first learned about your website - archiving Frank Benn's posts.

Hows about a title then (for the Dempsey's book that is.)

JACK DEMPSEY, "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching And Aggressive Defense", Centerline Press, Downey, California 1950

sovann,

i used to have a pay ISP service and i had agent as my newsreader. then i went to free ISP with a local NYC provider and no access to NG's other than deja/google when we had our first baby. not sure why, i don't like web based NG's readers. loved agent. anyway, no, i do not read r.m-a daily anymore. i check it once a month or so for frank benn posts through google though. i have a lot more FB posts to archive. even Khun Kao is not on r.m-a anymore. he hangs out here. probably the most advertising i got was when KK posted on r.m-a as he would include my site as his sig for his previous articles.

a friend tells me about the UG back around 6/99 and how they were discussing JHR. i joined and stayed since then. right around that time Phil Dunlap starts posting kachin bando info and well, the rest is history.

i always wondered how ppl heard of my site as i do not really advertise it. i feel it's not "ready for business" yet. occasionally i would post the URL when ppl ask about something i have up already. but that's about as much advertising i will do. when it's ready, i will post on r.m-a and the various www forums.

sdumas,

i tried with amazon and could not get ISBN, but IBI gave you the title. good luck with your search.

IBI - u da man, thanks!

ISBN: 0913111007 for everone else

SG,

Your site was "ready for business" years ago. It is one of my favorites. It rocks! It is the exact blend of arts that I am interested in. I was training FMA back then. I remember when you post your breakdown/review of Gibson's stick grappling tape. I always wanted to ask you what a "branch" disarm was. I still haven't really had a chance to get a partner and work that stuff.

Same situation, I would hang at rma, read a review of Fighter's Notebook, came looking and haven't left since.

sovann,

thanks for the props, i do not deserve it IMO. it's the MAists who took the time to post the incredible info they share. most ppl say they print it or save to HD, but i took it a step further. nothing much.

damn, i forgot about that and actually it was Marc McFann's vid and not Terry Gibson. when i posted that, there seemed to be no interest on ED. did i post "branch disarm"? if so, i do not recall what it is. have to watch again. and yes, i do not have time to train that stuff too. would love to though. i know branch armlocks as in branch up, branch down, branch straight. but not branch disarm. u r not training FMA now? i thought u still did in addition to the grappling et al u did. u emailed me the stick choke a few months ago.

the reason i say it's not ready, is the earlier pages i put up is not consistent with the layout of the newer template i use with the navigation links. i figured one of these days, i will go back to add an index to each page, update the nav link bar, etc. but as i have time to work on it, i figured, might as well put up more info instead of working on old pages.

oh yeah, sovann,

some recent posts on ED is going over the inside deflection vs #1 debate again. some of the material shown on marc mcfann's stickgrappling was off of a cooperative caveman and you would do the inside deflection. personally after watching the DB vids and going at it with my training partner 50%-75%, i ended using the DB roof as opposed to the inside deflection. i do not train with live swords, which is what the inside deflection is better suited for supposedly, so training with stick, i treat the stick as a stick and not as a substitute for sword. DB roof is safer to do IMHO.

and i make a distinction between the DB roof block as opposed to standard FMA roof block. std. FMA roof block is horiz above your head like this -------

whereas the DB roof block for right hander is 45 degree angled out with tip facing earth and punyo facing heaven like /

anyway, concentrating my stickgrappling training based off of DB roof or DB umbrella (mirror image of DB roof \ ) and not inside deflections.

The Jack Dempsey book is great, but a little beyond the pugilism era. Here's a link to John L. Sullivan's book on boxing (printed around turn of century) that was scanned in:

http://keith.martialartsman.net/gallery/galleryMain.html

Jason

hey Jason, long time, how goes the BAR?

thanks for the link.

Excellent site Jason Couch! Is that your site?

SG,

I've had a serrada instructor show me roof block like \ - tip up, punyo down. But he was very much treating his stick as a blade.

Yeah, a few months ago I was in the mood to swing the sticks after dusting off my Dog Bro tapes. So I hooked up for a private with an instructor in my area who I connected with from the pekiti website. He taught me some Balintawak progression for 5 angles of attack. Good stuff.

Yo, any SCA players here?

Ye Lunatic,

yes, excellent site. it's Keith Mayers and not Jason's.

sovann,

OIC on the FMA privates. i'm working on something and when it's done, i will email you.

re: serrada roof - i must admit i do not know all FMA, know of serrada and some terms like lock and block. seen JC Cabeiro's vid, and on DB vid saw Angel Cabales (awesome!). did not know they use the term roof for that block. maybe i'm picturing it wrong: stick is in right hand and you tip is up and punyo is down and it's \ blocking your left side or right side?

and of course, "block" within FMA context is relative as sometimes it's a counterattack or very aggressive block.

Hey Hy-

Bar is less than two weeks. Nerves are starting in a little :-)

BTW, your site is better than ever, keep it up!

Ye Lunatic-

Not my site, it belongs to Keith Myers, although we do get together and work out now and then. He's working on a site for the German medieval dagger and unarmed tradition now.

It is unbelievable how much info is available in the extant western fight manuals out there. Biggest problem I see right now is that some guys translating and/or sharing and demonstrating the info don't always have a firm grounding in the practical side. I'm sure that will change with time, though, particularly as the info gets disseminated more broadly.

Jason

good luck brother!!! i'm sure you will pass with flying colors!

thanks for kind words on site. again, i don't deserve it. i have to update it more and of course, not sastisfied with it yet.

ttt

heading home and hopefully this thread will still be alive for TrueFightScholar.

stickgrappler - you've got you terms a little mixed up

stick = "-" is a roof block

stick = "/" is a umbrella as long as you finish it like a redonda, thats how you do a umbrella 6 count - if you just hold it there it's called a high wing

stick ="\" is a pluma. it roughly means a quill. you hold the stick like you would a writing quill.

i trained with dan inosanto and these are his terms - i trained with leo gaje' and these were his terms too. (i dont remember what he called the pluma). it is entirely possible that marc denny got the terms totally worng. it wouldnt be the first time. (the fang, isnt the fang at all)

Congrats to hackett for getting the Japanese two-handed sword question correct--yep, NO-DACHI was the answer (good job from IBI as well)! The no-dachi was essentially an oversized katana, some 5-6 feet long, usually with little or no ornamentation--these were strictly battlefield weapons. It could be slung across the back while on the march (much like the Scottish "claymore"), though it was probably more often carried "at the slope", as one would shoulder a rifle (and this is the manner in which German "landsknecht" infantrymen, and their Swiss adversaries, are shown carrying their two-handers). I believe the blade was sometimes simply wrapped in rice paper (as opposed to being carried in a proper scabbard), which was removed and discarded before action. Capable of terrible, sweeping cuts, the no-dachi was indeed a formidable sword.

sdumas--looks like other folks beat me to the punch in regards to the info on the Dempsey book--good luck finding it!

Next post fairly soon...

Q: Name the first wrestling manual to be published in the english language. Bonus points for the year of the initial publication.

Jason Couch (hoping he has the correct answer)

in reguards to the fillipino changing boxing - still tring to get all the info - all i got now is it was sometime during the american occupation

" Like I said, when they punched it was more with a vertical fist. If it wasn't practical, why would they be using it for so long in a dynamic, contact sport? "

"In any contact, combat sport you are fighting against a live opponent, if a combat style is impractical when being used against a live, resisting opponent, it will show. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to hit effectively. We are talking about a sport that was around for hundreds of years...you don't think that in all time boxers didn't figure out how to punch effectively? "

well bruce lee found that the strong hand lead was more effective. why then do boxers remain in a weak hand lead for so long?

truefight - most interesting origins of my last name - no wonder i'm such a bad azz (j/k)- however it might explain my father being in the partisans, my brother being a golden glove boxer and a cop, and me a martial artist

as far as the stage fighting thing goes - what i meant to say was - in all the schools i've seen but her and new york (not sure if mr martinez is part of that NYC school) stage fighting class are the only place to learn 1600-1800 style of sword play. al these schools have masters teaching these and eppee/foil/sabre clases. the compition style of fencing, state of the art is totally different then 1600-1800 style. purhaps it's a marketing ploy to call it stage copmbat for actors to take classes. purhaps it's because the only place to put it to use is in the acting area, as fencing compitions dont use this type of movements - granted there certainly are carry overs - but all type of slashing and hacking movements and their counters are no longer part of the game - it is much quicker/effective to thrust then to slash or hack. plus in point matches (psydo duels) there's not much need for dismemberment like there might be in war.

i never said the spanish couldnt fight however i do think the fillipinos where better trained as a whole - the noblity were really the only ones highly trained in the art swordsmanship other than the occasional bad ass street dude. much like todays martial artist. the military, just like our own military is trained to be effective in the most efficient manner. they dont try to make the soilders olympic grade shooters, just good enough to get the job done. and the hand to hand is miminal a few weeks at best, compaired to a martial artist who devotes years or a life time to training. the fillipino's trained like martial artists - you werent allow to even leave your village unless you were highly skilled - that had nothing to do but farm and train all day. they had to train heavily because they had to defend their villages from being invaded by other villages. even as recently as wwII the bolo battalians train all day long. they had nothing else to do - go on patrol and train. thats it -

even though i'm a instuctor of FMA - i was interested in western sword play sa well -i ws planning on getting in to it but bjj kinda sidetracked me. i dont even practise kali anymore (kali = escrima/arnis)

as far as the palms up punching - lets say that i was off (not that i admit that yet) - and i missunderstood what i was told - it was shown on his thread that the stand still was different and the punches still different than today. the changes still could have been brought about by a fillipino bad ass boxer

Jason Couch--you've totally stumped me as to the first wrestling manual in English... I can't wait to find out the answer.

It is true that Dempsey's book is "a little beyond the pugilism era", but the fact that he was teaching the vertical fist-type punch is fascinating. Dempsey also had some interesting things to say in Ch. 3: "And I recalled the details of my later post-graduate courses in fighting from Doc Kearns and Trainer Deforest, one of the best instructors in the world. Deforest's career went clear back to the days of Peter Jackson and the London Prize Ring Rules. ...You must remember that when I fought Willard in 1919, it was only twenty-seven years after Jim Corbett had beaten John L. Sullivan at New Orleans in the first championship fight with big gloves. While I was coming up, the technique of the old masters was still fresh in the minds of fighting men."

The vertical fist, the reference to Peter Jackson, and that last statement, "...the technique of the old masters was still fresh in the minds of fighting men," are all rather revealing. Good stuff.

I'll have to check out that site.

sreiter--

Bruce Lee, while undoubtedly an extremely talented martial artist, is neither the first nor last word on punching. You say that he found the strong hand lead more effective--well, it would probably be more accurate to say that he found the strong hand lead more effective for him, and his approach to fighting.

Again, the whole boxing/FMA story sounds totally suspect. Boxers already knew how to punch effectively. Very effectively, in fact.

sreiter = pls note i prefaced all my terms with a DB indicating the DB usage. i learned them the way you posted but the DB used them in a different way.

please go over the differences between FMA fang and DB fang. i'm not sure if i know it. what i noted was on the vid, the fang was taught one way and maybe it has evolved or with influence from Dr. Gyi and/or others, the fang now is a spearing type "choke".

TIA.

Jason,

i'm guessing it's something on cornish-devonshire wrestling? don't know the title or year. or was it something on glima?

TrueFightScholar,

damn, i knew it could not have been katana :-)

I'm turning in so I'll answer now in case this thread slips in the night.

Q- 1st Published English Wrestling Manual?

A- AFAIK, it was "The Inn Play or Cornish-Hugg Wrestler" by Sir Thomas Parkyns. Published first in 1713.

A transcription of the 1723 version, IIRC, is available here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/westernartsparkyns.html

So yes, it was Cornish-Devon, very good. The In-Play being Cornish, the Out-Play Devon. First english wrestling manual with illustrations wasn't until the 19th century.

Jason

thx - i kept refreshing hoping for the answer.

i'm gonna save this thread!

stick - i know you said DB thats why i said marc denny probally got it wrong.

The technique is neither a “FANG” nor a CHOKE. The technique is actually call APILER (pronounced ‘ah – peel – are’), a Filipino word meaning pin (as in safety pin) or needle. Marc Denny's fang drives the punyo into your neck and you tap do to the pain. the actual real version of this technique is to apply the punyo into the wind pipe. The “FANG” technique comes to us from the Villabrille system of Filipino Martial arts. To fang means to hit your opponents hand. Just as if you remove the fang from the snake it cannot harm you, so to if you remove your opponents hands/arms he cannot harm you.

Nice thread ttt!

Here's a question: Which is the older school, Shinkage Ryu or Kashima Shinryu? I'm sure we have some japanese swordsmanship experts in here. Oh, and to prove you are not guessing you'd better give an approximate date of founding.

Tuli's Tooth... "Vasco de Gamma or another Spanish/Portuguese explorer was killed by a Phillipino king I think. It was sword against sticks."

No, Vasco Da Gama died of disease in India in 1525. I believe you are thinking of Magellan, who did not die of sword against stick. We went over it earlier in this thread.

sreiter..."well bruce lee found that the strong hand lead was more effective. why then do boxers remain in a weak hand lead for so long? "

I am not sure what you are getting at. Bruce lee like the lead hand for himself. One reason was because his brother was a good fencer and he supposedly got a lot of ideas from watching him fence. Lee wasn't a boxer and wasn't thinking of sport. He even talks in his notes about thinking of your lead hand's fingers as the western fencer's sword and the target as the opponents eyes. The lead hand worked for Bruce and for the type of fighting he had in mind. There are different ways to fight and that was one that I am sure worked for him.

sreiter..."i never said the spanish couldnt fight however i do think the fillipinos where better trained as a whole"

How can you know that? If the filipino's were better trained, then why did the Spanish occupy their land for 350 years?

sreiter...- "[regarding the Spaniards]the noblity were really the only ones highly trained in the art swordsmanship other than the occasional bad ass street dude. "

That is incorrect. It is well known that many civilians all throughout Europe, including peasants, artisans, and merchants practiced combative arts. There were many sword fighting guilds all over Europe that consisted entirely of lower class civilians. Fighting manuals were published widely in many countries and were readily available throughout Europe. People carried a sword, a staff or at least a dagger with them everywhere they went for self defense. Soldiers lives depended on whether or not they could use their weapon in hand to hand combat. Mercanaries and men-at-arms constantly trained in wrestling, dagger, sword and pole arms. In fact, in England there was a civilian swordfighting guild called "The London Masters of Defence" where it took 14 YEARS to become a master.

sreiter..."the military, just like our own military is trained to be effective in the most efficient manner. they dont try to make the soilders olympic grade shooters, just good enough to get the job done. and the hand to hand is miminal a few weeks at best, compaired to a martial artist who devotes years or a life time to training. the fillipino's trained like martial artists "

The Spanish military didn't just draft young fools and give them a 2 week crash course in swordplay, arquebus and pole arms. As I said, people's lives relied on the sword, if you were in the Spanish military in the 16th century you can bet you that would have seen action, whether it had been in the Netherlands, Mexico, the Phillipines, or in shipboard battles on the high seas. If you didn't know how to use your weapon, you were dead. Swordplay isn't like firing an m-16 a2 at a target. It is "hand to hand" combat and takes years to learn. People practiced all the time. Generally a soldiers life was simple: When you weren't off fighting, you were either training hard or whoring and drinking. We are talking about a time when all of Europe was constantly at war with one another and self defense meant being able to effectively fight hand to hand. Even if you look at some 16th century European fighting manuals, you will see that many civilians trained like martial artists.

In fact in the early 16th century, Henry VIII made is MANDATORY for all citizens to practice archery every day. Citizens were required to "use and exercyse shootyng in longbowes, and also have a bowe and arrowes contynually" in the house. Fathers were required by law to purchase bows and arrows for their sons between the age of 7 and 14 and to train them in longbow use. Renaissance Europe wasn't candyland. Figting was a way of life for many.

Jason Couch, good question! Thanks! Yes, Dempsey wrote his book in 1950, beyond the pugilism era, but he started fighting out of the tail end of it and his instructors all learned from a long line of pugilists. Thanks for the Sullivan link! I notice that a lot of what Sullivan saysgoes right along with what Dempsey says. Their styles look the same, except Sullivan's book obviously has more holds.

I just spent the past hour typing up a post that this site wouldn't accept--kept saying it was too long (no matter how much I trimmed it)! I have much to say to sreiter in regards to the supposed "lack" of Spanish martial training when compared to the Filipinos, but unfortunately I must get to work, and so once again I must merely hope that this thread will still be alive tonight. I'm really upset at the failure of the server, or site, or whatever kept my post from being accepted.

I still want to talk with Stickgrappler too.

If this thread dies before I get back this evening, I'm simply going to start it up again--"MA History Q & A, (continued)"--and I really want to address your apparent misconceptions about European martial culture, Mr Reiter!

Have a great day, folks.

Cool wrestling question, Jason Couch. Keep 'em coming!

Now, as for Willio's question about the older Ryu of swordsmanship--I'll have to do some homework for that one!

This is a faaantastic thread. This thread deserves it's own Q&A!

TrueFightScholar,

i will keep ttt'ing this thread for you today. also, i will put up to my site in case over the weekend this thread may die out. i have no gurantees i may be able to go online at home during the weekend, so putting up to my site this thread will help.

School question-

Off memory, I'd say around 16th century? I think Kashima was the one started by "divine inspiration" and I thought there was some relationship between the two schools, so I'm guessing Shinkage was first and already around.

I'll see if I can't come up with another question.

Jason

According to my sources you are incorrect Jason! And guessing is not allowed contestant #1! Please try again..lol

sreiter,

thanks for info on the fang. i think in ED, Eric Knaus posted that he was never taught the fang and he discovered it while fighting.

i have a q. for you: what is the paper cutter stickchoke? pls see the following URL for what i thought it was:

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html/techniqueofthemonth/techniqueaug99.html

a friend much more experienced than me commented: "If you have mount on someone, place a hand on one trap, and lower you forearm into their windpipe...kind of like a paper cutter! ;-)

The thing he shows as a paper cutter is a scissors (gunting) Dinge. Or 'X' choke."

TIA.

Here's an easy one for you mma enthusiasts-

Q: What was the pankratiast Arrichion most famous for?

Jason

here's one:

with the advent of technology, specifically email and internet, many of the various factions of WCK have interchanged ideas, history, techniques etc.

what is the origin(s) of the name of the style "wing chun"?

p.s. if you read COMPLETE WING CHUN, you will know the answer(s).

I've got another good one, but I'll save it for tonight since TrueFightScholar will enjoy it.

I'll let someone else take a crack at the Wing Chun. I've heard the "classic" tale, but I'm sure there has been martial scholarship refuting it since then.

Jason

Is Arrichion the guy who won his final match posthumously?

Wing Chun - I think one tradition states that it was the founder's name.

"Arrichion of Phigalee died while gaining the victory. He was being strangled by one of his opponent's arm. Hopelessly trying to release himself from this submission, he managed to seize his opponent's foot (some say the toe) and twisted it so much that he dislocated the ankle. Unable to take the pain, his opponent raised the hand as a sign of giving up at the same time that Arrichion, choked out, breathed his last. Arrichion was proclaimed victorious on posthumous grounds. The Agonotheses crowned his corpse and this scene made the subject of a painting that Philostratos described."

http://www.chez.com/pancrace/iupad/panccra.htm

"The combat sports were especially close to real warfare in that they were the most likely to produce the occasional death. We already mentioned the boxer Kleomedes who killed his opponent with a foul. A pankratiast named Arrachion (or Arrichion) was remembered for winning the pankration at Olympia in 564 BC shortly after dying. How is this possible, you ask? Pausanias tells us that Arrachion was done in by his opponent's choke hold on his neck and a scissors hold with his legs on Arrachion's midsection, cutting off his ability to breathe. Just before Arrachion died, he managed to dislocate either his opponent's toe or ankle. His opponent, unable to stand the pain, conceded victory to Arrachion, who was already dead. The judges proclaimed him victor and crowned his corpse. Another account of this event says that when Arrachion was about to give up, his trainer aroused a love of death in the athlete by crying out: "How beautiful an epitaph it would be: he never conceded at Olympia." According to this anecdote, this exhortation encouraged Arrachion to resist submission at the cost of his life.

Philo, the Jewish philosopher (1st cent. AD), noted that victory or death was common philosophy of wrestlers and pankratiasts (Quod Prob. 110, 113): "Among these competitors, death for the sake of an olive or celery crown is glorious." (the four major Greek athletic festivals [Olympian, Pythian, Nemean, and Isthmian] gave victors crowns of vegetation rather than cash or other valuable prizes. Olympia gave a crown made of olive tree leaves; the wild celery crown was awarded at the Isthmian Games.)"

http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics.old/athltics.htm

IBI u da man on Arrichion! on origin of name of WC, the legend/myth/general consensus, is that Yim Wing Chun, a woman, being bullied, learned from a Shaolin nun, Ng Mui. YWC taught her husband and he named the style after his wife calling it WC. from the different styles within WCK, there are other explanations of the origin of the name and this all came about with the proliferation of WCK and the advent of internet/email.

Jason, sorry, i had to cheat and used google to find out the answer. IBI beat me to it.

Yim Wing Chun founded the style based upon the teachings of the Buddhist Nun Ng Mui, after the destruction of the Shaolin temple. It was a style adapted specifically to be good for women.

As far as I know, that's the simple answer as to the origin of the name.

when i get home, i will type up some other origins. interesting in a historical sense.

with modern research, it is suggested that the Shaolin (siu lum) temple would not admit any women evenif they were a nun. because of this, the modern research thinks this "popular legend" is a fabrication.

modern research suggests the answer to WCK's origins lies in the fact that the Qing/Ching (aka Manchus) were in charge and the Ming dynasty was overthrown. the rebels who were trying to restore the Ming dynasty had pooled their techniques to come up with WCK. to cover their identities as they were revolutionaries, they just attributed the style's origins to a fictious nun and lady.

estarriol,

i was asking about the name of the style and not how the style came about, that would be my next q though :-)

Gold star for Arrichion answer goes to Stickgrappler, but later revoked due to cheating admission. IBI gets star after judge admits was pressured into giving to Stickgrappler.

One of my all-time favorite books is "Combat Sports in the Ancient World" by Michael Poliakoff. He goes into Arrichion and many other fascinating stories and details of boxing, wrestling, pankration, stickfighting, etc.

The nun story was the one I originally heard. I think I also heard "wing chun" meant "beautiful springtime" or something along those lines (the supposed nun named it that, IIRC).

Jason

damn, i almost had the gold star :-) i thought i was "resourceful" ;-) psst, here's $5, can i get the gold star back LOL

i heard the general story crediting Leung Bok Chau, Yim Wing Chun's hubby, as naming the style after her. even Yip Man pub'd an article on the origins of WCK and crediting Ng Mui and YWC.

that sounds like an interesting book. any stickfighting questions or is that reserved for TrueFightScholar? not like i would get any without being "resourceful" :-)

I enlisted some help and got this one from Terry Brown, author of "English Martial Arts" (excellent book). That's why I was saving it for TFS, from his name it sounds like he is an English MA fan b/c True Fight is a George Silver term. Anyway, here goes:

Q: What is the earliest record of an English martial arts school, i.e., when is the earliest that we know such schools existed?

Year is fine, but I will also accept closest century.

Jason

i'll guess james figg's, 18th century. read the 1st 2 chapters of bob mee's bare fists book. was it 1730's? forgot.

Wrong, but a sensible guess. I'll try to dig up an interesting stickfighting question for you.

Who's next? Step right up, pick a century , any century...

Jason

damn, was that close to a gold star :-)

u know what, i think i mistook figg for school. figg was the first acknowledged champ of england.

http://www.antekprizering.com/sullivankilrainposter.html

check that URL out for sullivan vs kilrain.

i posted Jason's URL for the sullivan book in the boxing q&a and Black Fitzsimmons notes that from photos that it's nothing like the illustrations of his book.

sreiter,

"there's a guy who is alive today that a japaneese sword master - the guy does movies - he was in one with christopher lambert - where these ninja's are after him cause he saw some chick get killed after he had sex w/her - anyway he the greatest living japaneese sword dude alive - i heard he is actually one of the best ever"

was this movie THE HUNTED with John Lone and Joan Chen? Forgot if it was Tak Kubota or Tadashi Yamashita who played the swordmaster. Kodo did the soundtrack. great drums.

-----------------------

ok - this thread is up at my site

http://go.to/stickgrappler

in case it disappears before i get home and go online.

hopefully TFS will see this thread, pls TTT for him as well as sreiter and Ye Lunatic and the rest of the usual suspects :-)

stick - do you train bjj? - the paper cutter choke is just like the bjj choke really from side control think holding the stick at the tip instead of the punyo. as if you choked up on a baseball bat al the way to the tip - with his back on the ground slide the punyo end under his neck - remember your in side control on his left side, so the punyo goes from his right ear, under his neck, and comes out on the left side it should be fairly deep. your palm is facing towards his feet. now drive your elbow down towards the ground. the of a paper cutter and the arm movement as it comes down and cuts the paper. - it can be done standing as well - but after you put it behind his head bring the stick ove his trap, so the punyo is pointing towards the floor. the stick should be kinda resting on his chest. grab the bottom of the stick like a baseball bat - or like you would hold a staff - but with your hands at the ends of the stick - bring your rt elbow towards your left hand - we call that a nut craker - you could also set it up by holding the stick normal - lay it on his chest vertically - point the tip behind his neck. push the stick behind his neck enough to see the stick - cross your left arm over your rt. grab the tip of the stick with your left hand, thumb up. move your left elbow torwards your right hand. you can also do a nice hip throw over you rt hip from here - let me check my notes in a few hours and see about some more set ups - only had a few hours sleep and cant really think - will discribe the x choke later --

steve

Steve,

a BIG THANKS IN ADVANCE. it's sincerely appreciated.

no i do not train in BJJ yet. thanks for clearing up the paper cutter for me.

now i cannot leave work yet until i add in our 2 posts :-) to my site.

Posted to the Underground forum.