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Savate Grappling thread started by gmh

Subject: tell me about it!
From: gmh
Date: 03-Apr-00 | 11:14 PM

I have heard that savate has good grappling techniques. This interests me because savate is a striking style, and would probably not grapple when striking would be better, as is the case for the sport grappling styles and others,,, and would be good street style of grappling.

I have looked aroudn on the net, and no on eseem sto say much about savate grappling. SO just what is it???

Some say savate is a ring sport/ french kickboxing, while others say it also has a range of street fighting stuff - I have heard of them fighting with chairs and overcoats!!!

So just what is it all about?

gmh

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From: gmh
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 12:05 AM

ttt

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From: Stickgrappler
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 12:10 AM

ttt - waiting for Iceman to read this

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From: fatmanohyeah
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 01:27 AM

They say karate has grappling too.

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From: mbajj
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 01:51 AM

I think that you have the impression because Savate coexisted with wrestling as the two (main, weaponless) martial arts in France. Before Savate became a sport, the people who did it did it for self defense. Many of them probably wrestled as well.

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From: Mark Stables
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 01:57 AM

I studied some Savate (boxe francais) and never encountered any grappling moves. As far as weapons we studied something called La canne a form of stick fighting similar to fencing only with a straight 3 foot cane. This sport is popular in france, very fast and technical. Mark

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From: Antti Mäki
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 02:31 AM

I think the grapling part is called lutte(sp) parisienne or something similar. That is all that I know about it.

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From: Iceman
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 09:01 AM

Savate, the origional umbrella term applied to arts such as Chausson, Savate, Lutte Parisienne, Lutte Marseialles, and later Boxe Francaise did include takedowns, locks, elbows, knees and some pretty effective open hand "slaps". Also, La Canne (which today is also practiced competitvely with protective equipment) was just one of the weapons, There was also Gran Baton (staff), double cane, whip, Pitchfork, and all sorts of other stuff.

The Boxe Francaise, which is the modern ring manifestation of the sport, outlawed many of these techniques back in the 60's. In earlier bouts, it looked probably a little more like San Shou than the more pure-kickboxing you see today.

But no, the groundfighting was not as developed as it is in let's say BJJ or Judo. Most throws, takedowns etc were initiated directly from a jab/cross or kick combo. Lots of high amplitude throws but what was also interesting is that many throws were designed not to land the opponent on his back but on his face, head or knee. The clinch often involved grabbing the hair (hey, it was for streetfighting...)

French manuscripts dating back to 14th century show some of these techniques and tell of challenge matches and battle field use.

There is a great article in the last GRAPPLING MAGAZINE (RELSON ON THE COVER) by Salem Assli about Lutte,.....check it out!

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From: Oh Snap!
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 02:49 PM

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From: cbower
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:19 PM

I train grappling with a friend who is from France. He was a competitive kickboxer. I show him BJJ/grappling and he shows me kickboxing. Last Summer one of his French friends was on vacation here. This friend had been a champion in Savate. He saw me doing some basic techniques as I rolled with my friend on the mats. I then invited him on the mats, and he almost turned pale and started walking backwards saying "NO NO NO NO, I know none of that." He wouldn't step a single foot onto the mats. He said had absolutely no ground or submission experience from Savate.

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From: martial_shadow
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:28 PM

Iceman, out of curiosity, which savate org. are you with as there are close to 20.

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From: Iceman
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:33 PM

Do you mean which Savate organization, there's the main body French Federation - Fédération Française de Boxe Française Savate & D.A.) and the Fédération Internationale de Savate / International Savate Federation which is the governing body for all the fights, etc.

I have trained with differnet people and had experience in France. I will be returning to France this month to do more training and returning in June for the World Cup. The New Jersey Savate Federation is a conglomerate of people from different instructor lineage including Prof. Salem Assli and Prof. LaFont.

Are you referring to the Texas organization?

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From: Pakyon
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:41 PM

Yes and no,

Grappling IS included in the practice of Classique Savate. I have never seen it taught in the sport Parisian French Boxing being taught here in the U.S.

Australian Savate Assoc. Coach Craig Gemeiner will be teaching Classique Savate skills, as well as holding classes on COMBAT Gran Baton and La Canne, in Houston, TX at the end of May. His trainings stress street realism. To find out more about Classique Savate do a web search for the Australian Savate Association.

For more info about the May Classique Savate seminars (private lessons are available too) email Brian Jones: Pakyon@netscape.net

Thanks,

Brian Jones Pakyon@netscape.net

P.S. Damn, S. Sonnon makes this seem so easy!

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From: Iceman
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:42 PM

Cbower, As I said, since the Boxe Francaise is pretty much the only "savate" practiced now and is representative of the art, no modern Savateur would know anything about the ground. I'm sure even the world champions like Richard Sylla wouldn't know what to do if you put them on their back.

The OLD Savate (for lack of a better word) is starting to be taught openly in France again, and though this does have throws and simple locks, it's still not ANYTHING as comprehensive as BJJ ground work.

DO you know the name of this world champion guy?

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From: Iceman
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:46 PM

Craig Gemeiner has a GREAT website and I have many of his articles. I know of his club through the American Registry of Savate Instructors and Clubs- International (World Registry of Savate Boxe Francaise of which our club is a member.

Our club teaches both the Classique Savate and the Boxe Francaise for ringmanship.

Best of luck with your seminars!

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From: Stronghold
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 03:47 PM

There is a book on Savate grappling that predates jujutsu! In fact, one theory is that Japanese jj was advanced by Europeans in Japan before the Fuedal era, but I don't buy it.

link

In case the link doesn't work it is: http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/liberiHome_main.htm

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From: bustr
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 05:02 PM

TTT

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From: bustr
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 05:26 PM

I'm looking at August ,87 IKF magazine. There is an article by Salem Assli where he mentions Joseph Charlemont's book "The Art of French Boxing and Cane Fighting". The book was published in 1899 and is said to include hand, foot and cane fighting as well as Parisian wrestling. There we have an article, written 5 years before the BJJ revolution, on a book published 93 years before the BJJ revolution talking about Savate grappling.

I thought I would mention it before any of the resident juvenile delinquents find this thread and start accusing the savateurs of fabricating history.

Savate does have grappling!

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From: cbower
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 06:41 PM

Iceman:

Thanks for the info. maybe there will be a revival of the "Old" Savate making it a more comprehensive form of self-defense with ground techniques. I'll ask my friend the name of the savate champ I met, I don't know if he was a world champion or national champ.

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Subject: savate grappling
From: prajnakhadga
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 07:23 PM

I trained with a french champion in the mid 70 s and went to the annual tournament, and grappling was never mentioned. This is not to say that it was not part of the sytstem at an earlier date.

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From: Pakyon
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 07:43 PM

Iceman, Thanks for the kind words.

Bustr,

Parisian wrestling in Charlemonts time was basically Greco-Roman wrestling.

Train hard,

Brian Jones pakyon@netscape.net

P.S. ttt

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From: beau
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 07:51 PM

I saw the issue with the Lutte Parisian article. It was very interesting, especially the drawing from the 14th Cent manuscript...the clothes looked pretty goofy, but hey, it was the 1300's. I remember the aricle saying ( and having drawings that showed it) that the throws in Savate were intended to place the person on the ground that would make them vulnerable to a kick, especially to the head.

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From: bustr
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 07:58 PM

Brian

Thanks for the info. I was curious as to what type of wrestling Lutte Parisienne was. My point was that Savate Grappling does exist. It is not a marketing ploy.

Peace

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From: Pakyon
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 08:13 PM

Bustr,

For more info on pre-1700 European Grappling go to: http://www.thehaca.com Go to the spotlight section and click on European unarmed fighting. Let me know what you think.

Enjoy,

Brian Jones Pakyon@netscape.net

P.S. I also sell a hc German Text that is comprised of the Ringen (wrestling) techs. of 4 German and 1 Dutch master. A little of the material from the book is on the HACA site... Ah, that was easy, maybe someday I'll be as good as ScottS at marketing!!!

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From: bustr
Date: 04-Apr-00 | 09:13 PM

Been there!

Makes me think that maybe MA history goes back a lot further than we know. MA might be as old as our species.

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From: Pakyon
Date: 05-Apr-00 | 02:15 AM

ttt!!!

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From: bustr
Date: 05-Apr-00 | 05:18 PM

Clarification on what I said earlier. Two cultures Italy and Japan (who were probably un-aware of each other's existence) are using identical techniques for sword dis-arms. If one didn't learn from the other then where did they learn? I suspect these techniques can be dated back to the dawn of modern humanity.

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