full nelson strategy? -- Use and Counters

mcz@fas.harvard.edu wrote:

> In judo and wrestling competitions the full nelson is illegal on the grounds
> that it aims to break the opponent's neck.  So one would think that it would be
> a submission hold in contests that do not forbid its use.  (Is it allowed in
> Sombo?)  But I've never seen mention of someone using, let alone winning with,
> a full nelson in a UFC/NHB/BJJ/... match.  Why is that?  Is there a reliable
> technique to break or neutralize the hold?   Is there always an alternative
> (probably some kind of choke) that ends the match more quickly?  Is it just
> too easy to avoid getting caught in an effective full nelson?
>

It's pretty difficult to break someone's neck with a full nelson. The chin reaches the chest with most people before this happens. It's uncomfortable, but not unbearable. And, it's relatively easy to relieve the pressure (more on that in a moment). You don't see the full nelson in NHB primarily because the person will generally keep their elbows down and in, making it not possible.

-- Neutralizing the Full Nelson --

There are many ways to break the hold -- it depends upon whether you are standing or on the ground. As far as neutralizing it once it's in place, the easiest way is to grasp your own hands together in a palm grip and place them with the back of one hand against your forehead. Now he cannot drive your head forward and downward.

The full nelson is not the most efficient hold, as it ties up both your arms. I've only used the full nelson on a small number of occasions while grappling, and even then really as a novelty more than anything else.

-- Some Uses of the Full Nelson --

Getting the full nelson can help you to retain shoulder alignment, torso adherence, and arm control while you work your hooks in for the back mount. When you do this, he is unable to reach down with his hands and block your hooks from going in.

-- Follow-Up Finish --

If he tries to turn and face you, you can let one arm out and go with it into a stocks and neck crank.

-- Arm Pin, Roll, Hip Heist --

If you are the person being nelsoned, you can trap one of his arms with your elbow before he joins hands, and roll to the side. Now, hip heist and turn toward him, and you have side control.

-- Finger Lock --

Many people make the mistake of lacing their fingers when they apply a hold like this. This is a major no-no. If someone does this, you can reach back with one or both hands and dislocate several fingers.

-- Proper way to apply the Full Nelson --

The main mistake of most people is in the grip. A thumb-in palm to palm grip is the best way to secure a full nelson -- NOT lacing the fingers. Although, as I said earlier the full nelson is not that big a deal, and it's about as far from a high percentage position or hold as you can get. Usually, it's people who grew up on pro wrestling or some such that think the full nelson is in any way primary.

-- Follow-Ups --

Option 1: If he has a gi or shirt on, release one arm and go to kataha jime (single wing choke).

Option 2: This is if you are both face-up. Keep one arm hooked, release the other side, move off to the side (make him believe he's getting out, and he'll help you by moving off to the side of his free arm), push the side of his head away and step your leg over, and cross armlock.

Option 3: Stocks and neck crank.

Option 4: Go to a half nelson, move around him to that side and drive into him to secure a side control or pin.

There are also some shoulder lock follow-up options which will dislocate his shoulder.

> Along the same lines, does banning the full nelson appreciably change
> grappling strategy?  Probably not as drastically as wrestling rules
> where you'd rather give your back than go into a guard because chokes
> are verboten while in a guard you're "pinned", but I still wonder.
> Ink wiring mines, etc...

It wouldn't change grappling strategy for most people, because in most disciplines the hold is either not stressed or hard to get against a game opponent, and as said before, it really ties up your own arms when you apply it.

Frank Benn
Integrated Arts
Austin, Texas

Posted to Usenet's rec.martial-arts on 1999/05/03